Impounded boats in Mexico

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor
zeehag,

WHO has 'cleared' and who has gotten their boat out of embargo?





.................. funny how much is missed by skimming.. do it myself..

opps...my bad.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

You could also read this from yesterday:

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude

And it is content/blog posts like that which is exactly why this happens. You kick, they kick back. It's pretty simple really, learned these lessons when I was 4 years old.

[colemj]

Um, I think the latitude "kick" followed the mexican "kick"…

Mark

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

What utter BS!!!

From Lat 38 'lectronic Latitude from last week (and there have beern updates since, you might wanna read them before coming up with this cr@p) ---If this is from the website itself (rather than a rant from the usual online nutters) then I despair at the self serving nature and thinking that as a Gringo they should get a free pass.......

We sure hope not, although thanks to the actions of a new sub-agency of Hacienda (the Mexican IRS) called AGACE, it appears the country is on the verge of doing just that — and even worse, perhaps setting the stage for possible problems with the United States government. ("threat to send a gunboat")

In the last month AGACE, which was created by the new Peña Nieto administration to be auditors for foreign commerce, has been checking the paperwork of foreign boats in 12 marinas in Mexico. To be legal in Mexico without having to pay duty, foreign boat owners are required to possess their boat documentation, proof of clearing into Mexico, and a Temporary Import Permit, and have all these documents on file in the office of whatever marina the boat is in. This is perfectly reasonable. Agreed - perfectly reasonable, indeed any rules are perfectly reasonable.

According to a harbormaster who attended a big meeting in Mexico City yesterday with AGACE, Tourism, and other officials, 338 foreign boats were found to be out of compliance with these rules in just the 12 marinas that were checked. That's a huge number, so let us give you a hint why. Yes, that is a sign of a huge problem - and worth the tax authorities looking into........in any country.


We at Latitude 38, who have undoubtedly been the biggest promoters of nautical tourism to Mexico for the last 30 years, have had our catamaran Profligate put in what's called 'embargo precautorio', or precautionary embargo. Sounds fair enough and about as light an action they could take, they have not seized the boat nor even impounded it nor prevented access by the owners - simply preventing the boat leaving before any tax is paid or the paperwork has been accepted to show no tax due. The same as any other tax authority would do - and more reasonable than some (chained to the dock and no access!.....or even lifted out and with a storage charge! not unusual).

It's not that we didn't have our boat documents; we did. It's not that we don't have a Temporary Import Permit; we have the same 20-year permit we've had for 17 years. It's not that we can't prove that we checked into Mexico because we have that document, too.
No, our 'crime' is that we weren't on our boat when AGACE officials, backed by armed Marines, came through the marina checking paperwork. Yes it is a "crime" (lol), WTF are the tax authorities meant to do? wait around on the off chance the owner comes back? assume that the tax paperwork is in order (seems that approach was tried over a couple of decades and hasn't worked out to well ). Elsewhere in the world the tax authorities may have ESP, but not something to be assumed .


Much of Mexican law is based on Napoleonic Law, where you are considered guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Utter nonsense - if that was the case then over half of the EU Nations would be thrown out of the EU . .

Since we weren't around to show our paperwork, AGACE assumed Profligate was not in compliance with Mexican law (guilty), and thus is now under 'precautionary embargo'. Yes, as the Tax Authorities didn't see the paperwork how would they know it was all in order??? ESP??


It gets even more ridiculous. When AGACE officials came around a week later, Doña de Mallorca was aboard, and showed them the documents. Nonetheless, Profligate is still on the embargo list. No idea who Dona is - but likely that once on the "embargo list" that the requirements to get off are raised beyone the decision of an official on the ground - that not unusual, it's a rule of law thing . Yer now in the system - suck it up and find out how to get off.


Other boats were found to be out of compliance because of misspellings on documents made by officials in the United States or Mexico, because hull identification (HIN) numbers were painted over after many years, because AGACE officials who know nothing about boats didn't know where to look for various identification numbers, and so forth. By that you mean the documents were incorrect, that is a rational explanation for the documents not being accepted. It is also not the responsibility of officialdom to help folks find own numbers (which could be and are! often anywhere!), if you can't show them to officialdom the default is they do not exist - and it is hardly a surprise, is it? . Sometimes life involves accepting personal responsibility .

Boats under 'precautionary seizure' are not allowed to leave the dock, as they are considered to be like foreign merchandise on which duty hasn't been paid.

There's just one problem with this. Most of the vessels in question are U.S. documented vessels, and it's our understanding that it's illegal to impede the transit of such vessels unless a crime was committed. We can't imagine the U.S. government is going to stand by with hands in pockets if 338 U.S. boats, worth tens millions of dollars, are illegally held for any period of time........."send a gunboat"? lol. the world (and Mexico) has moved on. A boat (and the owner) is subject to the laws of the country it is in - no matter what the flag is.


Surely, one would think, these minor problems could quickly be cleared up. Not so. At the meeting in Mexico City yesterday, AGACE gave no timetable for embargoed boats to be "liberated." But we've learned today that AGACE has up to four months, under their rules of operation, to assess the status of boats that have been seized. Of course they don't know how long it will take for the Boat Owners to sort out their paperwork and present it - it's that ESP thing again.

Consequently, there are cruisers who can't move their boats, and there are foreign boat owners who won't be able to take visiting family and friends sailing over the holidays. Tough titty, welcome to the rule of law and taxes. a bit of planning ahead before and now getting off backside would help a bit more than whining on the internet.


The damage to Mexico's reputation will be growing by the day, and right at the height of tourist season. A country that has had a drugs war splashed accross the world news for several years is likely not going to be too bothered by a few boat owners whining.



To say boat owners are pissed off would be an understatement. Both Canadians and Americans are already starting to call their government representatives to protest. It's that gunboat thing again

If you think marina owners, Mexico Tourism, and other business interests, such as those involved with real estate, like this, you couldn't be more wrong. After all, it perpetuates the image of Mexico being a scary place, where tourists and retirees can't feel safe or believe their assets are secure. Of course they don't like it - but that is irrelevant.....in any event, they are thinking short term ($$$) whereas longterm having the rule of law actually implemented is a win win for Mexico.


We hope this matter is resolved very quickly, as we don't think it accurately reflects on Mexico or even the Mexican government as a whole. But the damage will build with each passing day.
Please stay tuned......yer mean the clock is ticking?! another threat. a toothless one

Reminds me of all the whinging and whining over the last couple of decades of folks on boats (and ashore) in Spain as that Govt slowly got to grips with folks who thought all rules and taxes applied only to the locals.....and that the tax paid on beer was more than their fair share for being a resident.

Perhaps my comments above are a bit harsh - am sure some folks have been caught up unnecessarily, but human nature being what it is most of the problems will be self inflicted - mostly by folks in the past believing whatever was most convenient for them......

.......get yer paperwork in order, present it to the correct officialdom - and keep an eye on future requirements.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Reminds me of all the whinging and whining over the last couple of decades of folks on boats (and ashore) in Spain as that Govt slowly got to grips with folks who thought all rules and taxes applied only to the locals.....and that the tax paid on beer was more than their fair share for being a resident.

Perhaps my comments above are a bit harsh - am sure some folks have been caught up unnecessarily, but human nature being what it is most of the problems will be self inflicted - mostly by folks in the past believing whatever was most convenient for them......

.......get yer paperwork in order, present it to the correct officialdom - and keep an eye on future requirements.

+A1...
And personally by owner would be best.. intermediaries rarely cut it..

[JPA Cate]

^^ I'd like to add that if your own Spanish is insufficient to deal with legal matters, you might take along a Spanish speaking friend to translate for you. Not that the official with whom you deal may not speak your native language, but that it is accepted as a sign of respect and competence if you speak to them first in their language.

[TacomaSailor]

WHAT am I missing here? Zeehag, Boatman, Ann T Cate all repeatedly state that "if only the gringo boater did the the right thing and cooperated with the officials - the problem would be resolved."

Yet - the biggest promoter of Mexican boating, who has decades of experience dealing with Mexican officials, reports:

"When AGACE officials came around a week later, Doña de Mallorca was aboard, and showed them the documents. Nonetheless, Profligate is still on the embargo list."

That sounds like the owner of the boat provided the necessary and appropriate documents to the Mexican officials yet the boat is still embargoed.

I repeatedly ask "who has been cleared of the embargo and how did they do it?" and I get no answer other than I would know the answer if I did not skim the threads.

Where are the details of the effective embargo clearing?

There seems to be a complete disconnect between questions being asked and answers being provided.

Am I just stupid, is there a hidden thread with details that I have not seen, or am I just missing the obvious?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

WHAT am I missing here? Zeehag, Boatman, Ann T Cate all repeatedly state that "if only the gringo boater did the the right thing and cooperated with the officials - the problem would be resolved."

Yet - the biggest promoter of Mexican boating, who has decades of experience dealing with Mexican officials, reports:

"When AGACE officials came around a week later, Doña de Mallorca was aboard, and showed them the documents. Nonetheless, Profligate is still on the embargo list."

That sounds like the owner of the boat provided the necessary and appropriate documents to the Mexican officials yet the boat is still embargoed.

I repeatedly ask "who has been cleared of the embargo and how did they do it?" and I get no answer other than I would know the answer if I did not skim the threads.

Where are the details of the effective embargo clearing?

There seems to be a complete disconnect between questions being asked and answers being provided.

Am I just stupid, is there a hidden thread with details that I have not seen, or am I just missing the obvious?

Is Dona de Mallorca the registered owner of the vessel.. or is it the owner/proprietor of Lats38.. I'm confused..
Oh.. and your the one saying 'Gringo'.. not us... I consider that word as offensive as 'Greasers'....
'Yanqui'... now that's something else.. unless your from S of the Mason-Dixon line...

[Celestialsailor]

Just so people who are not here in Mexico know...They are checking paperwork. When we check into a Marina...any Marina in Mexico, we are required by the said Marina to furnish them with all our paperwork. Documentation, TIP, legal address and so on. The AGACE only have to check HIN's to my knowledge. It was never stated by AGACE that the owner had to be onboard. Since all the paperwork is in the Marine office, all the agents had to do was look at it and then the HIN to confirm it was the same vessel. Like Latitude said, they do not seem to be clear on how to achieve their goal.

[Stu Jackson]

For those who don't know Richard and Lat38, they have been the most prominent ++++s for Mexico boaters.

For the past 30 years!!!!

Absent other input, other than zee's (who is NOT in a marina, I have NO idea why you folks seem to miss the simple concept of reading the simple links about what is going on.

[zeehag]

richard schindler is an advocate fro mexican tourism.
he spends very little time in mexico... last year i saw him with profligate for a week in la cruz. a week. that is a long time to spend in mexico, and surely long enough time to know what is actually happening in mexico.
he is excellent with the organizing of the haha. he doesnt have his ears to the street.l

[Blue Crab]

None of this surprises me. Been in Mexico many times. What was ok 30, or 20 years ago, or even 2 years ago doesn't mean mierda. These are reform times. Read the news.

I suspect the average cruiser, traveling with proper documentation, will be inconvenienced some but will be allowed to move on. That we've had carte blanche in times past is past tense.

The thrust here may be the swells who operate charter companies under the guise of leaving the boat in Mexico for vacations. Those boats will be found in marinas.

Add in a bunch of scofflaws who maybe haven't paid registration or taxes and fees to any country for years and there's a pot o' gold to collect; or "abandoned" boats to auction off. My guess is Mexico City couldn't care less ... bigger fish to fry.

The Latitude guy has his bully pulpit and he's using it. I doubt it will find sympathetic ears in the US Govt gunboat dept.

I'm eager to hear what CS has to say when he's approached. I do think Stu has a point that how Zee is treated may be different from others. She's there with a good track record and not attempting to be a swell.

[zeehag]

i was in a marina when this occurred. the occurrences did no t happen this far south., it only happened where the mouth writing postings about falsification of papers was actively cruising. sorry folks. my ears are to streets, not lofty places and i do hear a lot more than you can imagine. funny what you hear when judging regattas with port captains.

it is also funny what happens when one is actually IN COUNTRY when trying to release a boat from impound. it happens., from remote locales out of mexico,a lot longer, as the release is not their priority.
it is also strange to me that the story of joun hards, which is proper spelling of the man´s name, was so easily able to release his boat yet those who refuse to arrive and drive or bus to tax man are having such difficulties.
the situation is a concern, yes, but i do not believe in coincidences.
when the occurrences are in a specific area, when the mouth roared exactly from the affected area, and when these affected areas are only in the exact locale in which one person who d¡srespects mexico is hanging out, and when i hear what it is that is being spoken by officials i sail with and judge regattas with, i must wonder why it is the lofty souls who spend so little time here actually think they know th e place.
r

[Richard5]

Hate to break the news but as far back as I can remember (early 70s) its been hit or miss in MX. Sure, the 'swells' who go dripping with yanqui dollars are ripe for the plucking but this time (not the 1st time) it's those in the know being shook down. But the 'swells' deserve it, right?

Wandering unknowlingly into the intercity flashing gold is one thing, govt sanctioned overt thievery is quite another thing.

NOT saying MX is govt sanctioned thievery in this case but it is comparing apples to oranges. But hey, the gal in the short skirt deserved it, right?

I see your hyperbole and call you.

[Richard5]

Originally Posted by zeehag

i was in a marina when this occurred. the occurrences did no t happen this far south., it only happened where the mouth writing postings about falsification of papers was actively cruising. sorry folks. my ears are to streets, not lofty places and i do hear a lot more than you can imagine. funny what you hear when judging regattas with port captains.

it is also funny what happens when one is actually IN COUNTRY when trying to release a boat from impound. it happens., from remote locales out of mexico,a lot longer, as the release is not their priority.
it is also strange to me that the story of joun hards, which is proper spelling of the man´s name, was so easily able to release his boat yet those who refuse to arrive and drive or bus to tax man are having such difficulties.
the situation is a concern, yes, but i do not believe in coincide

Zee, this is your time to speak what you know. Not in some kind of (name better not mentioned) zealot of San Blas but to be a factual on the spot reporter of these cruising grounds.

We realize you are limited in getting around but by your own admission you know people, you have your ear to the street. Rather than be defensive about it why not be more welcoming in dissemination of knowledge?

Could it be that you aren't everywhere at once, in spite of your 'ears to the street'? Could it be that maybe, just maybe a multi-marina sweep was conducted without prior checking with you? Golly, you think.


John, or Joun, Hard is anecdotal because it represents a single data point and therefore insignificant vis a vis the plethora of vessels embargoed in MX. Give it up, confess what else do you have?