Impounded boats in Mexico

[BandB]

First, let me make it clear I haven't yet cruised to Mexico and my only trip into Mexico was into Jaurez from El Paso to eat dinner at a Chinese Restaurant.

Now, as to Richard and Latitude 38, I knew nothing of either before this happened. At first I thought highly of their reporting and publicizing. However, as it's evolved, I would have hoped they would have been the voice of reason instead of further exciting the masses and those who haven't been impacted by this. Also other media sources used misleading headlines that didn't help leading one to believe the boats had been taken rather than just sequestered.

As to the handling by the Mexican authorities, there were individuals charged with tasks they were not prepared for or trained for and for which no policies and procedures existed.

So all led to a most unfortunate situation. Had my boat been there I would have been extremely concerned, but I think upon actually talking to the marina and heading there, I would have been less so. I know there is nothing that has happened that would make me sell my boat and give up boating, even had I been there. But then some do the same after a bumpy ride across the Atlantic or one equipment failure while at sea. I love boating too much to quit that easily. Piracy could make me do that or at least limit my boating much more. Perhaps that puts it into perspective, there were no lives threatened or endangered. I've been snowed in in US cities without snow removal equipment and in hotels with most staff out for more than a week, a couple of times. It was inconvenient and I wanted to be home. But those of us stuck just formed our own impromptu group and made the most of it.

Would it lead me to avoid Mexico? Probably wouldn't head there right now, but I'm sure six months from now I'll be less reluctant and I'm certainly not writing it off for life. I would say one thing, if I was going there now I would absolutely use the services of a local agent. I would also not at this time leave my boat there alone without myself or any crew there.

One other thing that comes to light. While Mexico needs all income it can get and while the marinas definitely need us boaters, their economy has so many severe issues that the boater isn't going to make or break it. If this was all tourism there it might be different.

This is a bad situation and has been very costly to many, provided tremendous aggravation, and cast the country in a poor light. But I completely feel it will blow over and things will return more to normal, Mexico normal as it is. I think reason will ultimately prevail. Until then I'll continue to follow it but with reasonable calm.

[CSailor]

Thank you, CarinaPDX for the posting.

And ahoy fellow cruisers. My boat was one of the so-called impounded vessels in Mexico and my better half and I are the 'friends' CarinaPDX is referring to.

My logic in clearing out and simply returning state-side is this:

* The situation had gone on long enough - it feels like it's bogging down, getting lost in emotion and possibly (my hypothesis) getting the official 'ignore the problem and maybe it will go away' treatment by the Mexican authorities that screwed up in the first place.
* I, the owner, received nothing official (that means in writing) indicating my boat was seized. Everything was only verbal. Fine, if it were for a few weeks, maybe, and I could see the 'officials responsible for the screw-up' were working to fix the problem. I like Mexico (heck, I love Mexico and her people), I appreciate their 'official' problems and want tourism - especially nautical tourism - to prosper. BUT what I saw was confusion, inconsistency and eventually what feels like an attempt to sweep the issue under the rug.
* "No harm in trying" to clear out completely legally, by the book, and with the permission of the Port Captain and marina. (Hotel Coral and Marina, Ensenada, Mexico).

My attempt to clear out worked or I wouldn't be writing this. We are relieved but we worry about our friends and fellow cruisers still stuck confused and frustrated. My heart goes out, especially, to the locals in the tourism industry being hurt by this screw-up.

My personal advice is as follows.

Gather the required documents, providing you haven't been issued a formal seizure notice, pay your bills, get the form letter from the marina saying you have done so and, without fear, or anger, or vitriol or smugness show up in person. Respectfully request permission to proceed to your next port, just as though it was a completely normal request. Treat everyone with respect, follow the rules, and be kind. No bribes please, do not patronize anyone, the people at the marina or the port captain's office didn't do anything wrong to you but by going on with business as usual you are allowing everyone involved a way out that saves face.

This standoff has to end and I believe it will if we behave and allow everyone a chance to get out of it without losing face.

Would I go back to Mexico? Now that I'm state-side, and looking in instead of looking out, yeah, I'd go back. I'm going to have to - Mexico is in my heart. BUT until things like this stop happening, I sure as heck won't be taking my boat.

Thanks for reading and good luck!

PS: One thing I should mention, I guess is that our paperwork was completely in order and we had one of the new TIP forms. The reason for seizure was given as not finding the VIN number - which we have, and it's a pretty new production boat. So, the error was one of botched inspection, not an actual infraction on my part. I would not recommend anyone who may have been out of compliance with Mexican law try to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

Also, sorry for making this so long, the law firm acting for Hotel Coral and Marina, on behalf of the seized boat owners, had presented the required evidence of compliance to SAT within the 10 day period required by their law.

[Richard5]

My only interest in this matter is general curiosity.

Morgan, please further elucidate on your comment of not 'pulling the wool over' keeping in mind that your vessel had been impounded yet the vessel left the country.

[Blue Crab]

Plus, I wondered why/how the marina manager would, what? sign off on you leaving without approval. What did I misunderstand?

[CSailor]

Good question, Richard. Perhaps I wasn't that clear about my own process of clearing out legally.

Regarding wool over the eyes; I meant it would not be a good idea to lie about something like having received an official notice of seizure, or not having a valid TIP or some other infraction. In my personal case I'd never received a notice of seizure and only learned my vessel was seized when I told the marina I was moving on to my next port. Notification was verbal, from a marina representative and not a tax authority. Therefor, I felt it prudent to request permission to move on to my next port, from an official body with the jurisdiction to stop me should I in some way be breaking the law; the port authority. Once permission to leave had been granted by the port authority, who I was told would have a list of the seized vessels, I requested a letter of permission to leave from the marina, which I also presented to the port authority who then issued the clearance papers, and carried on.

If one has committed an offense, even inadvertently, I would not recommend trying to get out of it using deception. But I suspect, the Mexican authorities would be aware of the deception and make it clear permission to leave would not be granted.

That's what I mean by wool over the eyes. Forgive my use of a colloquialism.

I should also add that about 5 miles south of the American border and about 3 miles off Tijuana, at about 1:30 am, our vessel was approached by what we assume was a military gunboat. The 40 or 50 foot motor vessel was heavily armed and running dark. No navigation lights or identifying markings we could see in the dark, anyhow. The vessel shined a spotlight on my vessel for several minutes. I'm assuming they were looking for the vessel name and flag and conferring with their superiors via radio. They didn't try to stop us, and made no attempt to board us. Eventually they went away, heading south, still with no navigation lights. Prior to encountering the gunboat we'd seen them on radar as an unmoving floating object. My assumption is they were intercepting vessels traveling along the coast to relay their identification to a land based authority and perhaps stop or board those that weren't supposed to be there. But, that's my guess. They went away after making a thorough identification of my boat using a spotlight.

[Richard5]

Morgan, thanks for the comeback.

My synopsis: If vessel is 'impounded' or otherwise detained, get it in writing and from an official or agency which has the authority to detain a vessel. But in any case, never lie or attempt by duplicity to countermand that authority.

To that I wholly agree. Never lie, by commission or omission, even a tiny bit for it can lead to much greater trouble.

[CSailor]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Plus, I wondered why/how the marina manager would, what? sign off on you leaving without approval. What did I misunderstand?

I was probably writing a response to Richard as you wrote this.

I was granted permission to leave by the marina after paying for all services and goods I had used up to that time. I simply said, I wish to leave for my next port and will be checking out. I would like to settle my account and request a letter to present to the port captain's office regarding my departure. The credit card was processed and a letter provided.

The letter was given to the port captain's office and the clerk handed me the completed clearance papers and wished me a safe journey.

Note: I had applied to the port captain first without a letter, not knowing it was needed. They held my paperwork while I went back to the marina to settle my account and get the letter. They had at least 45 minutes during that time to stop our clearance if they'd felt it necessary. I returned to the office with letter from the marina and the clerk provided the papers.

[Blue Crab]

Cool. As it should be. I misunderstood the hierarchy. Thanks

[bazzer]

Originally Posted by Morgan Stone

Good question, Richard. Perhaps I wasn't that clear about my own process of clearing out legally.

Regarding wool over the eyes; I meant it would not be a good idea to lie about something like having received an official notice of seizure, or not having a valid TIP or some other infraction. In my personal case I'd never received a notice of seizure and only learned my vessel was seized when I told the marina I was moving on to my next port. Notification was verbal, from a marina representative and not a tax authority. Therefor, I felt it prudent to request permission to move on to my next port, from an official body with the jurisdiction to stop me should I in some way be breaking the law; the port authority. Once permission to leave had been granted by the port authority, who I was told would have a list of the seized vessels, I requested a letter of permission to leave from the marina, which I also presented to the port authority who then issued the clearance papers, and carried on.

If one has committed an offense, even inadvertently, I would not recommend trying to get out of it using deception. But I suspect, the Mexican authorities would be aware of the deception and make it clear permission to leave would not be granted.

That's what I mean by wool over the eyes. Forgive my use of a colloquialism.

I should also add that about 5 miles south of the American border and about 3 miles off Tijuana, at about 1:30 am, our vessel was approached by what we assume was a military gunboat. The 40 or 50 foot motor vessel was heavily armed and running dark. No navigation lights or identifying markings we could see in the dark, anyhow. The vessel shined a spotlight on my vessel for several minutes. I'm assuming they were looking for the vessel name and flag and conferring with their superiors via radio. They didn't try to stop us, and made no attempt to board us. Eventually they went away, heading south, still with no navigation lights. Prior to encountering the gunboat we'd seen them on radar as an unmoving floating object. My assumption is they were intercepting vessels traveling along the coast to relay their identification to a land based authority and perhaps stop or board those that weren't supposed to be there. But, that's my guess. They went away after making a thorough identification of my boat using a spotlight.

No doubt looking for dope smuggler lees

[sww914]

Originally Posted by Morgan Stone

Good question, Richard. Perhaps I wasn't that clear about my own process of clearing out legally.

Regarding wool over the eyes; I meant it would not be a good idea to lie about something like having received an official notice of seizure, or not having a valid TIP or some other infraction. In my personal case I'd never received a notice of seizure and only learned my vessel was seized when I told the marina I was moving on to my next port. Notification was verbal, from a marina representative and not a tax authority. Therefor, I felt it prudent to request permission to move on to my next port, from an official body with the jurisdiction to stop me should I in some way be breaking the law; the port authority. Once permission to leave had been granted by the port authority, who I was told would have a list of the seized vessels, I requested a letter of permission to leave from the marina, which I also presented to the port authority who then issued the clearance papers, and carried on.

If one has committed an offense, even inadvertently, I would not recommend trying to get out of it using deception. But I suspect, the Mexican authorities would be aware of the deception and make it clear permission to leave would not be granted.

That's what I mean by wool over the eyes. Forgive my use of a colloquialism.

I should also add that about 5 miles south of the American border and about 3 miles off Tijuana, at about 1:30 am, our vessel was approached by what we assume was a military gunboat. The 40 or 50 foot motor vessel was heavily armed and running dark. No navigation lights or identifying markings we could see in the dark, anyhow. The vessel shined a spotlight on my vessel for several minutes. I'm assuming they were looking for the vessel name and flag and conferring with their superiors via radio. They didn't try to stop us, and made no attempt to board us. Eventually they went away, heading south, still with no navigation lights. Prior to encountering the gunboat we'd seen them on radar as an unmoving floating object. My assumption is they were intercepting vessels traveling along the coast to relay their identification to a land based authority and perhaps stop or board those that weren't supposed to be there. But, that's my guess. They went away after making a thorough identification of my boat using a spotlight.

From what I saw when we were in San Diego for a month, sailed out and back into the harbor a few times and then sailed south of the border to Ensenada and beyond, that was likely the US Navy. Yes, south of the border. I saw them there twice in the daytime. When we sailed out past 3 miles just north of the border to dump our holding tank the US Navy helicopters flew over us 22 times in an hour. There is a lot of Navy presence there, I'm sure that you saw it when you came across.

[Richard5]

That 'super pangas' have been coming ashore at my beach 260 nm north of the border loaded with more than a coupla keys I say someone should pull the trigger. Let me, I'm qualified.

[IdoraKeeper]

It is good to hear that at least one owner was able to recover his property by legally and properly applying for permission to continue on to his next destination. If I owned a vessel that had all proper documents and no written notice of seizure I would do the same.

This situation has been going on for a while now. Whatever the reason for it actually is, it seems that its no longer business as usual. It will be interesting to see if any of these cases are ever resolved. I would be devastated to lose Idora in such a manner. Perhaps it is prudent to ask permission to leave and bring the boats back to the USA. All Mexico can say is yes or no.
A reverse HaHa with a prearranged rondezvous with the US Navy or Coast Guard on the way north as an alternative to unlit gunboats and spotlights in the night while at sea.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

It is good to hear that at least one owner was able to recover his property by legally and properly applying for permission to continue on to his next destination. If I owned a vessel that had all proper documents and no written notice of seizure I would do the same.

This situation has been going on for a while now. Whatever the reason for it actually is, it seems that its no longer business as usual. It will be interesting to see if any of these cases are ever resolved. I would be devastated to lose Idora in such a manner. Perhaps it is prudent to ask permission to leave and bring the boats back to the USA. All Mexico can say is yes or no.
A reverse HaHa with a prearranged rondezvous with the US Navy or Coast Guard on the way north as an alternative to unlit gunboats and spotlights in the night while at sea.

The information we have received down here, by Harbor managers is that many, if not most have been released from the list.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

The information we have received down here, by Harbor managers is that many, if not most have been released from the list.

And all indication is that all boats that are legal or can make themselves legal will be released. Yes, it's a very bad series of events that have been quite emotionally and financially draining on boat owners and marinas and have tied many boats up for a period of time. And that is all bad and hopefully will not recur. It seems those in charge do realize what a mess has been created. But no one has been physically harmed and no boats taken from any owners at this point. A bureaucratic fiasco.

If I owned one of the boats involved I would be very upset. But it would take more than has happened so far to make me write any future trips to Mexico off. The FWC got carried away in Boot Key and a few other places recently. But I'm not leaving Florida either.

I'm confident all will end well. I do feel for those involved.

[jcknox]

After following the story closely...for better or worse, shortsighted or not, Mexico is off the list. It's a shame to start crossing places off before we even get started. But the fact is if I wanted to deal with this kind of aggravation I'd keep working for a living which involves working closely with physicians and is more often than not a supreme pain in the tush. We have travelled to Mexico many times and I loved every trip. Tried to get off the beaten path and always tried to positively impact someone while there. But these have all been traditional "fly in and stay for two week" trips not involving arrival on a personal vessel. I just can't justify the risk when the whole idea is to leave stuff like that behind. I wish the folks involved well and hope for Mexico's sake changes are made. They will just have to do it without my dollars and willingness to help someone in a small way that really needs it. It seems there is an excessively authoritarian wind howling through governments and law enforcement all over that seemingly has no end...so sad....