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Old 06-01-2016, 19:30   #46
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pirate Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

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Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post
Both are Common Law Countries.

“The rights or ...liberties of Englishmen ...consist primarly in the free enjoyment of personal security, of personal liberty and of private property... To vindicate these rights, when actually violated or attacked, the subjects of England are entitled, in the first place to the regular administration and free course of justice in the courts of law; next, to the right of petitioning the king and parliament, for redress of grievances, and lastly to the right of having and using arms for self preservation and defence.

“And all these rights and liberties it is our birthright to enjoy entire; unless where the laws of our country have laid them under necessary restraints... so gentle and moderate... that no man of sense or probity would wish to see them slackened.”
William Blackstone (1723-1780) Commentaries on The Laws of England

Under the Rule of Law (and the words do mean what they say), all Legislation (what our representatives create, in a 'Legislative Body' - they are Legislators not Law makers, and are expressly forbidden to be Law makers - because making Law is the exercising of power, and they are denied power, because nobody can be trusted with power) must comply with the Law to be 'lawful', otherwise the legislation is illegal, and void. The highest authority in whether legislation is lawful or unlawful, is a Jury of our Peers, which is why tyrants always try and do away with Jury Trials, along with subverting the Judiciary to their will.

“All liberty is conditional, limited and therefore unequal. The state can never do what it likes in its own sphere. It is bound by all kinds of law.” Lord Acton

Which is why Thomas Jefferson was correctly able to say:

"In questions of power then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."

This is what the American War of Independence was really fought over, and fought to restore. It wasn't anything to do with King George, believe it or not (confirmed by President John Quincy Adams), but he sure was a handy scapegoat for the real tyrants.

It was about the criminal and illegal changes made to the Constitution and Common Law, by a bunch of tyrants that infiltrated and took over our Democracy House (the House of Commons). It was an extremely badly implemented Act of Union 1707, that allowed this to happen.

William Pitt the Elder railing about it in Parliament at the time:

"Instead of the arbitrary power of a King, must we submit to the arbitrary power of the House of Commons? If this be true, what benefit do we derive from the exchange? Tyranny my Lords is detestable in every shape, but none so formidable as where it is assumed and exercised by a number of tyrants.

But my Lords this is not the fact, this is not the Constitution, we have a Law of Parliament. We have a Statute Book and the Bill of Rights."

We aren't supposed to have 'Government', we are supposed to be 'governed' by the Law (the Rule of Law is indeed literal).

If any moron considers any of the above to be 'political' in any way, kindly ignore them, because they obviously don't know which way is up.
So, it is settled then...i'm getting a boat and spending the abundance of my time, truly learning constitutional law and history..I'm sold.

+ 10 on the commentary..it is like fresh air the ideas you write about.
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Old 06-01-2016, 19:52   #47
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

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That's rhetorical isn't it?
Don't think so - the inclusion of Castle Doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with the conversation, but it was clearly dropped to evoke a negative reaction, which is further reinforced by your deliberate misspelling spelling of "Texus," which is in the news worldwide for their new firearms laws, that some persuasions don't care for.

On point your #34 - its identical to the question sometimes used by attorneys to cast a defendant in a poor light = "When did you stop beating your wife."

Of course, its a way to avoid the wrath of the Mods.
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Old 06-01-2016, 20:07   #48
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

You gentlemen seem to forget that in Texas, which recently joined the United States ass a State, you can still shoot of horse thief, unless someone has changed that. I wouldn't be surprised to find other "exceptions", as well as those that allow home invaders and their like to be deterred with lethal force.


But England is also the creator of the concept of Militia. Originally, this was a financial burden placed on the able-bodies members of towns by the king. When the only "law" might be the local Sheriff, hours or days away, the able-bodied men of the towns were held responsible for theft and thuggery. If someone in their town/village got robbed on the road, the local militia were required to turn out and seek out the villain, in the name of the king. If they failed to do so? They were required to recompense the victim, instead.


That obligation, and service, while largely repressed and ignored today, still exists at least in the Colonies. Militia membership is both State and Federal (two different laws and services) and is typically a very vague obligation to "enforce the domestic tranquility". Although today the laws are often kept as a relic and "voluntary" service is not expected, it IS still on the books. Technically, those same able-bodied citizens could still be held responsible to find and pursue the looters--or else ante up and make reparations, if the Crown tradition were placed upon them. I have no idea how the Crown has modified that obligation in the last four or five hundred years, it might well give the victim of a stripped boat some type of rights before a very unamused court.
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Old 06-01-2016, 21:33   #49
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

In no case (at least in the USA) are you legally allowed to shoot a thief. If you shoot someone, you must have been in fear for your life. It may or may not be a legitimate fear but if you say you shot them because thy were stealing, you will be charged with murder (or some similar charge).

But back to the original discussion, you can't leave valuable goods sitting out in public long term with no sign of being watched over and expect someone won't take it. If you leave a $100 bill on the sidewalk in plain view, it may technically be stealing but only a fool would expect it to be there when they get back.
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Old 06-01-2016, 21:36   #50
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

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Don't think so - the inclusion of Castle Doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with the conversation, but it was clearly dropped to evoke a negative reaction, which is further reinforced by your deliberate misspelling spelling of "Texus," which is in the news worldwide for their new firearms laws, that some persuasions don't care for.

On point your #34 - its identical to the question sometimes used by attorneys to cast a defendant in a poor light = "When did you stop beating your wife."

Of course, its a way to avoid the wrath of the Mods.
Your acting like a Troll Crabcake. I replied with the Castle Doctrine in direct answer to Dockhead's claim that you can't shoot thieves in the U.S. It was NOT dropped to evoke a negative reaction at all. And NO, mispelling Texes was not deliberate..
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Old 06-01-2016, 21:51   #51
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

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This has come up before about rules about property.

The reality is that sooner or later the vessel has to be declare an abondoned vessel and therefore fair game. Far from this situation though where the owner is trying to salvage the vessel.

Owner "helpless" to stop thieves stealing from his stranded yacht - MySailing.com.au
This is a well publicised case
Those poor people
I was a yachtbuilder in NZ, Used to be a lovely place
I had a farm there too
We could not leave home or go on holidays, crime is rife there
So we sold up and came to Buderim QLD, We leave our doors unlocked during the day
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Old 06-01-2016, 21:52   #52
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

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In no case (at least in the USA) are you legally allowed to shoot a thief. If you shoot someone, you must have been in fear for your life. It may or may not be a legitimate fear but if you say you shot them because thy were stealing, you will be charged with murder (or some similar charge).

But back to the original discussion, you can't leave valuable goods sitting out in public long term with no sign of being watched over and expect someone won't take it. If you leave a $100 bill on the sidewalk in plain view, it may technically be stealing but only a fool would expect it to be there when they get back.

When You Can Kill in Texas | TIME.com

There is a very huge gulf between the law in Australia and New Zealand. There are definately circumstances in the U.S that you can shoot thieves.
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Old 06-01-2016, 22:08   #53
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

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When You Can Kill in Texas | TIME.com

There is a very huge gulf between the law in Australia and New Zealand. There are definately circumstances in the U.S that you can shoot thieves.
So what? Why is it so important for you, an Australian, to worry about what Texas does? We in the USA don 't poke you in the eye with a sharp stick over your domestic problems.

Take care of your own problems before you start meddling in others.

And you still have not answered my question, but that's to be expected.
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Old 06-01-2016, 22:13   #54
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

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So what? Why is it so important for you, an Australian, to worry about what Texas does? We in the USA don 't poke you in the eye with a sharp stick over your domestic problems.

Take care of your own problems before you start meddling in others.

And you still have not answered my question, but that's to be expected.
Texas law was simply being used as an example and not in any judgmental tone what so ever.

What is your problem Seriously, what is your problem? I've not had any altercation that I recall with you so why are you seeking to cause a fracus?

YOU DID NOT ASK a question?
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Old 07-01-2016, 01:38   #55
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

Wow, so much that is so wrong here,

but in an effort to add some value. Its stealing pure and simple, even if it was "abandoned" its still stealing. Its in Section 219 of the New Zealand Crimes Act. And in so far as Criminal Law is concerned, New Zealand is NOT a common law country.
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Old 07-01-2016, 01:47   #56
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

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Wow, so much that is so wrong here,

but in an effort to add some value. Its stealing pure and simple, even if it was "abandoned" its still stealing. Its in Section 219 of the New Zealand Crimes Act. And in so far as Criminal Law is concerned, New Zealand is NOT a common law country.
Why would you say NZ is NOT a common law country?
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Old 07-01-2016, 02:03   #57
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

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Why would you say NZ is NOT a common law country?
Because the Criminal law is codified, same as most jurisdictions in Australia, certainly yours and mine.

And the small matter of Section 9 of the NZ Crimes Act:

Quote:
Offences not to be punishable except under New Zealand Acts
No one shall be convicted of any offence at common law, or of any offence against any Act of the Parliament of England or the Parliament of Great Britain or the Parliament of the United Kingdom:
provided that—
(a)
nothing in this section shall limit or affect the power or authority of the House of Representatives or of any court to punish for contempt:
(b)
nothing in this section shall limit or affect the jurisdiction or powers of the Court Martial, or of any officer in any of the New Zealand forces.
Common Law, in so far as criminal matters is concerned is expressly excluded from the criminal law of NZ (and like I said your place and mine)
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Old 07-01-2016, 02:07   #58
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

Why is this actually important?

There is actually not a single thing I own that is worth killing or dying for. If I was in this situation I would take anything of sentimental value of the boat. Leave sorting out the rest to the insurers.
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Old 07-01-2016, 02:31   #59
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

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Because the Criminal law is codified, same as most jurisdictions in Australia, certainly yours and mine.

And the small matter of Section 9 of the NZ Crimes Act:

Common Law, in so far as criminal matters is concerned is expressly excluded from the criminal law of NZ (and like I said your place and mine)
Oh, I see what your meaning. That doesn't mean we are not 'common law' countries, it means that We no longer can be accountable to the English Criminal Law which were common law and also Commonwealth Common Law. Under the Westminster System it was theoretically possible to be charged under these 'common' laws. So, most Australian States and New Zealand made it clear that's not to be the case. I think Victoria and NSW did not follow suit. In my State of Tasmania it was as late as the 90's that we made this clear.

At a Federal level, the Federal Criminal Code Act of 1995 did the same thing.

But, we are still 'Common Law' countries which mean that the judiciary develop the laws through the interpretation of legislation passed by parliament.
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Old 13-01-2016, 14:55   #60
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Stranded Yacht

Another two examples at killing thieves - unfortunately both turn out to be the children of the shooters. Niether parent will be charged.

Police: Father accidentally shoots dead his 14-year-old son - CNN.com
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