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Old 05-01-2016, 08:42   #16
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

The idea of abandoned property being fair game is as old as the idea of ownership. Its why its never ok to take from a properly moored or anchored ship but an unattended, apparently abandoned vessel left beached to the beating of the surf may seem fair game. Its a matter of how long before you conclude it is abandoned. A day is not enough by a month may be. It is always the owner's job to make the situation clear using signage, watch dogs, armed guards or what ever.
As for it not being legal to shoot thieves, that is very reasonable and is the law in many countries. however a citizen's arrest is legal everywhere and if a resistor gets shot that is a very different thing.
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Old 05-01-2016, 08:55   #17
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

OK, you find a boat adrift, it's obviously been adrift a long time and has a really good Radar, HF, plotter, nice winches and lots of other "goodies" that you have really been wanting.
Is it OK to strip the boat? Why not? Do you scuttle it after stripping it, it is a hazard to navigation after all?

See where this goes? That hopefully will seem ridiculous to most, but I have to ask, by what authority do you strip items off of another persons boat?

I just am not the type to profit off of anothers misery I guess.

I don't pretend to be a Lawyer, but I have worked under the assumption that Salvage is essentially you saving a vessel or cargo, then you can make a salvage claim to the owner. So in this adrift vessel for instance, I think your allowed to tow her back to port and make a claim against it, but I don't think your allowed to strip it for parts.
Same I guess for a beached boat, your allowed to re-float it, tow her back to port and make a claim, but I doubt your allowed to strip parts off of it.
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Old 05-01-2016, 09:01   #18
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

I remember watching a YT clip from a Dutch couple that ran aground somewhere ...

Don't remember where but they 'slept' on the rocks behind the boat to protect it from looters.
Some locals were helping them protect the boat, others were trying to steal stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pesarsten View Post
A couple of dead looters will go a long way to pointing out the error of their ways!
Not against guns at all, but I am against killing people over some (probably insured but even if they're not) solar panels etc.

If this ever happens to me, all I can hope for is that only the boat (and whatever is on her) is damaged / stolen / wrecked and no people get hurt. Be it my crew, myself, people stealing from me or people trying to protect my boat against thieves - I value life over 'stuff' and don't want anyone hurt over a damn solar panel or whatever.
The boat and whatever is on there, I can replace. A lost life, not so much.
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Old 05-01-2016, 09:33   #19
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

I thot the essence of "The Law of Salvage" is that by the very act of attempting a salvage operation (commencing a salvage) you make yourself the "agent of the owner" and thereby oblige yourself, "under law" to act "reasonably" to protect the owner's property and interests.

Commencing a salvage does not oblige you to succeed, but if you do succeed you are entitled to "fair compensation" for effort and to recovery of costs, your claim for which would be subject to adjudication by the Courts.

If you don't succeed, no blame attaches PROVIDED you've acted "reasonably", always in the owner's best interests.

Wrecks (including abandoned vessels) in Commonwealth countries are the property of "the Crown", and the agency having jurisdiction over them is the Commissioner of Wrecks. Stripping a wreck is obviously theft.

Whether theft can be proved, and conviction obtained, and whether attempting to do so would even be worthwhlie, are separate, rather unrelated considerations.

There are lawyers present, I believe. Put me right if I'm wrong :-)

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Old 05-01-2016, 10:23   #20
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Its the same as shop looting. Suddenly reasonable people think its ok to steal.
MarkJ, you nailed it right on the head. Scavenge my ass, it is looting maybe piracy. If something has sank in deep water it may be a little different?
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:24   #21
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post

We are making the exact same mistakes, all over again.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:42   #22
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

Even vessels that have sunk, may still be owned by someone, especially if we are talking about a Modern vessel.
I think, but do not know if for instance you salvaged the pursers safe off of a sunken Liner, I don't think your automatically entitled to its contents.

Maybe I've watched too many TV episodes where they treasure hunt?
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:09   #23
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

There are normally very express "finder's keepers" laws in most places. Vessels still at sea would typically fall under maritime laws, treaty or lack thereof. But on land? If I found a Feadship on the beach, I'd probably be required to report it to the police, who would "secure" it in the precinct safe for a year, and then give it back to me if no claimant came forward. On the other hand, some half-rotted wooden rowboat worth under a hundred bucks, I could probably simply take and keep.
The dividing points are all set and covered by local laws, wherever you are.


As to preventing thievery? Well, if there's no one there, you can't very well do that, can you? You can discourage it, as some middle eastern countries have. Catch a thief? Cut off the hand that did it. Catch him again? And it becomes very hard to be a three-time pickpocket. The only problem being, sometimes the judges are mistaken and lesser incentives will have better results. Sometimes.


Hey, anybody ever been to Key West? That town was born and made by wreckers and "salvagers". Used to be one of the richest places in the entire US, and not hardly the first or only place in the world that got wealthy from that racket.
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:15   #24
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Even vessels that have sunk, may still be owned by someone, especially if we are talking about a Modern vessel.
I think, but do not know if for instance you salvaged the pursers safe off of a sunken Liner, I don't think your automatically entitled to its contents.

Maybe I've watched too many TV episodes where they treasure hunt?
You mean my looting the Titanic's?
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:40   #25
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

There are many interesting comments on this topic, not to mention different ideals being expressed.

To me, a boat on a beach [and I came across this very thing last year] is off limits regardless. I talked to a guy removing the bronze fittings and he made no justification other than, "hey, it's abandoned". And he was probably right. The cost involved in re-floating could be too high to bear, so the owner may well have just walked away. And he [owner] had every chance to salvage the hardware etc. himself. But maybe, just maybe, he was lying in a hospital looking out the window wondering if the boat was safe. No way I am going to be the person taking advantage of that situation. And there was some NICE bronze on that boat.

Now a derelict adrift on the high seas could be a different situation. If a boat is abandoned, then other than death, the owner must have been fully aware that they were indeed "abandoning" their vessel. Many people have abandoned vessels in fear for their lives only to hear later that the boat has been sighted, recovered, and/or salvaged. Depending on distance and the operating costs of the salvage vessel a decision has to made as to the value of salvage. Let's face the reality...how many "yachts" have enough value to justify the tremendous costs of recovery if the distances are great?

Never having come upon an abandoned vessel on the high seas, I am not sure how I would react. The thought of stealing from someone is not an option to me; yet a drifting derelict with sails and rigging hanging over the side, open companionway, unattended for any length of time? Useable, functional gear, stores, just deteriorating? Personal items? What is the likelihood of anyone "coming back" for their boat?

I know a man that spent a great deal of time dreaming about rounding the Horn in his 35' sloop, preparing, etc. He made the trip round the Horn, got into a storm a week later, was dismasted and made the decision to be picked up by a passing freighter rather than trying to jury rig and continue. He said that he had had enough and all he wanted to do was get off the boat. We were friends, so I asked him how it felt to just leave his whole life out there...his response was that he hoped if anyone found his boat they would be able to use any or all of it.

I hope I never do find someones home lying derelict, but if I do, I like to think that whatever I did would be out of respect for the boat and her owners...
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:52   #26
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

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Sounds like it's time for Mr Smith and Mrs Wesson to move to the area. A couple of dead looters will go a long way to pointing out the error of their ways!

Of course proper signage in multiple languages to notify the dregs of the beach that stealing is wrong and may get you killed is needed first.

Start gun rant now........
Congratulations...turning into a gun thread, the second post. That has to be a record.
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Old 05-01-2016, 13:00   #27
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

I deleted a post that was inflammatory and had no value.
I'm sorry but I had to delete two other posts that quoted the inflammatory post, as it is still in the public view if I didn't.
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Old 05-01-2016, 13:19   #28
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

It's sad when people start to quote things in order justify stealing :-(
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Old 05-01-2016, 13:21   #29
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

I, for one, think you are exactly correct. Which explains why lovers of tyrants seek to control schools first.
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Old 05-01-2016, 13:33   #30
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Re: Helpless To Stop Thieves Removing Property From Standed Yacht

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I cut N pasted this right from the article, and it is what I had been led to believe to be true as well, theft is theft, I don't think a stranded vessel ever really becomes "free game" does it?

Under international law a stranded vessel was not fair game, but belonged to the owner or insurer and removing items was theft.
Correct. Salvage and looting/wrecking are entirely different things.

Unfortunately the distinction is not popularly understood.
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