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Old 27-05-2013, 15:23   #46
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

They rationalize it by saying that it's good for 10 years so it's only $30.00 a year.
Regardless, it's more than I paid for my radio, tuner, and antenna materials combined.
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Old 27-05-2013, 15:32   #47
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

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...l
I dont understand how any sailor would go offshore outside territorial waters, without proper radio certification , irrepective of whether its mandatory or not. I mean why would anyone not want to learn how to use it properly ( and all the systems around it)

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That is just it Dave, in the US there is no part of the process that actually does that. Yet, folks continue to repeat how valuable and necessary it all is...
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Old 27-05-2013, 15:38   #48
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

Yes , given the issues over false DSC , the lack of knowledge about GMDSS, AMVER, etc etc and then the confusion over boatus fake mmsi ( thats what I call them ) , I dont understand why there isnt good VHF/SSB courses run by ASA or even the FCC.

Surely the goal would be to promulgate better understanding and use of these comms systems.

Leaving aside that , one should still seek to equip the boat and the operator correctly , if leaving national waters.

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Old 27-05-2013, 15:40   #49
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

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.....

Leaving aside that , one should still seek to equip the boat and the operator correctly , if leaving national waters.

dave
yup.
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Old 27-05-2013, 15:44   #50
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

Having training and license does not imply proper, thoughtful or courteous operation of a radio any more than a drivers training and licensing insures proper, thoughtful or even competent driving of an automobile.

I'm surely in favor of good radio operations and try to practice such myself. I even have all the licenses (including ham). I just don't see much connection between license and behavior in the real world.

As to being cited, well, in about 1950 I got a "pink letter" from the FCC informing me that I had been three kHz above the edge of the 20 metre band. I was mortified (at age twelve one had a fearful relationship with authorities). But I have never heard of anyone being leaned on by the FCC for marine radio practices, and the amateur world seems to be largely self policed.

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Old 27-05-2013, 15:53   #51
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

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Having training and license does not imply proper, thoughtful or courteous operation of a radio any more than a drivers training and licensing insures proper, thoughtful or even competent driving of an automobile.

I'm surely in favor of good radio operations and try to practice such myself. I even have all the licenses (including ham). I just don't see much connection between license and behavior in the real world.
while having a certificate does not imply good behaviour, it at least lessons the chances of imcompetence through ignorance.

Secondly , taking the European harmonised CEPT license as an example, only about 40% of that syllabus is VHF operation, The course, covers DSC ( all modes) EPIRBS, SARTs, GMDSS organisation, AMVER, rescue comms, VHF PRO-WORDS, legals , the maintenance of a radio log, etc etc

All great learning and an interesting day out . The exam at the end can daunt people, but the failure rate is very low.

Its not about the mandatory issue, just good training.

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Old 27-05-2013, 15:56   #52
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

Who is required to have a station license or an operators permit in the US...from the horses mouth.

Commercial Radio Operator License Program: Who Needs a License
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Old 27-05-2013, 16:01   #53
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

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Who is required to have a station license or an operators permit in the US...from the horses mouth.

Commercial Radio Operator License Program: Who Needs a License
I dont think theres any confusion who needs a license in the US, we all know that leisure boaters are exempt from both ships radio license and operators license once they remain in US territorial water.

Outside that , in compliance with IMO and ITU resolutions you need a ships license and an operators license, both in the US do not require competency tests ( which I personally beleive is a mistake)

( its even more a mistake for DSC equipped HF)

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Old 27-05-2013, 16:07   #54
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

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I dont think theres any confusion who needs a license in the US, we all know that leisure boaters are exempt from both ships radio license and operators license once they remain in US territorial water.

Outside that , in compliance with IMO and ITU resolutions you need a ships license and an operators license, both in the US do not require competency tests ( which I personally beleive is a mistake)

( its even more a mistake for DSC equipped HF)

dave
I saw a little discussion which might create a little confusion which is why I linked the laws directly from the FCC's website.
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Old 27-05-2013, 16:29   #55
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The big problem is that for a US operator certificate one only has to pay some money and that's it. This indeed leads to no difference to others if one has the certificate or not. The rest will have to put up with it anyway.

I have my general GMDSS certification for which I had to go to training 5 full days. Then there was an exam that took most of a day. I'm sure that every US cruiser who either has no certificate or paid for a certificate, will fail that exam in a miserable way. This is what often leads to tension during radio traffic when one party is US and the other is not. The classic example is about choosing the working channel, which is done by the called party; US operators just don't know that and will argue about it on the air.

It gets more serious during distress situations. I have had ladies talking about their Mexican Train dominoes game during emergency traffic and when told to be silent (Silance Mayday) they argued they were on the channel first (really! The guy with an heart attack died and they were not allowing emergency traffic on "their" channel). We can all say what we want about training and certification, but these kind of incidents just don't happen when operators are educated and have their certificate.
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Old 27-05-2013, 16:33   #56
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The big problem is that for a US operator certificate one only has to pay some money and that's it. This indeed leads to no difference to others if one has the certificate or not. The rest will have to put up with it anyway.

I have my general GMDSS certification for which I had to go to training 5 full days. Then there was an exam that took most of a day. I'm sure that every US cruiser who either has no certificate or paid for a certificate, will fail that exam in a miserable way. This is what often leads to tension during radio traffic when one party is US and the other is not. The classic example is about choosing the working channel, which is done by the called party; US operators just don't know that and will argue about it on the air.

It gets more serious during distress situations. I have had ladies talking about their Mexican Train dominoes game during emergency traffic and when told to be silent (Silance Mayday) they argued they were on the channel first (really! The guy with an heart attack died and they were not allowing emergency traffic on "their" channel). We can all say what we want about training and certification, but these kind of incidents just don't happen when operators are educated and have their certificate.
So you have the GOC nick, still is a 5 day cert. however just to put things correctly a SRC takes a day.

+1 on VHF procedures , I always cringe in the US and carribean when I hear terrible terrible operator procedures

Dave ( likewise GOC)

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Old 27-05-2013, 16:36   #57
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Re: Have you ever be cited for using VHF?

I don't think radio training is needed as much as an IQ test--I can't imagine what you learned in "5 full days." Most of the people causing problems on the air are in violation of commonsense and courtesy. Education wouldn't improve that. Some of the worst operators are professionals--impossible to understand. I have gone so far as to complain with specifics to the Coast Guard about some of their operators, and of course they didn't respond. Elocution classes would be important too. I have frequently had to step in and act as a go-between when people in distress can't understand what the CG is telling them and vice versa.

In any case, our entire marine licensing, or lack thereof, scheme in the USA is a mess. They do discuss this very briefly in mandated state boating safety courses, but much of those courses is oriented toward someone operating an open fishing boat on a lake where the vast majority of people die. Us ocean sailors are left out because you can count on one hand how many die in a year.
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Old 27-05-2013, 16:41   #58
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Quote:
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So you have the GOC nick, still is a 5 day cert. however just to put things correctly a SRC takes a day.

+1 on VHF procedures , I always cringe in the US and carribean when I hear terrible terrible operator procedures

Dave ( likewise GOC)
The SRC? I know the ROC (restricted) and GOC (general) but never heard of the SRC... Googling... ah, short range certificate, sounds like ROC which is A1 area only (VHF and EPIRB only).

Still 5 days ... I had suspected it to come with a carton of corn flakes nowadays
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Old 27-05-2013, 16:48   #59
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I don't think radio training is needed as much as an IQ test--I can't imagine what you learned in "5 full days." Most of the people causing problems on the air are in violation of commonsense and courtesy. Education wouldn't improve that. Some of the worst operators are professionals--impossible to understand. I have gone so far as to complain with specifics to the Coast Guard about some of their operators, and of course they didn't respond. Elocution classes would be important too. I have frequently had to step in and act as a go-between when people in distress can't understand what the CG is telling them and vice versa.

In any case, our entire marine licensing, or lack thereof, scheme in the USA is a mess. They do discuss this very briefly in mandated state boating safety courses, but much of those courses is oriented toward someone operating an open fishing boat on a lake where the vast majority of people die. Us ocean sailors are left out because you can count on one hand how many die in a year.
The 5 day CEPT GOC course covers everything from VHF , through HF, MF , telex over radio , Inmarsat A/BC epirbs SARTs , GMDSS , rescue comms , the itu documentation ,etc etc, its actually 5 packed days and requires quite intense application.

After that you can work any coms kit n the bridge of the QM2 legally.

Anyone listening to US VHF traffic and reading the issues of false DSC can see clearly the lack of user training is a big issue. God help us when you add MF HF DSC into that mix. In the US there is widespread lack of understanding how the basic voice procedure works , what the PRO-WORDS mean and how they work . Few US users have even heard of GMDSS or understand how GMDSS changed distress working over the old SOLAS conventions ( ie you no longer call out distress to other ships but to the MRCC ashore ) yet the US is a full signatory to the GMDSS convention. And has spent a fortune on its GMDSS implementation , Rescue 21. yet no one knows how it works , cause the CG have no real way or channel to get the info to the users

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Old 27-05-2013, 16:51   #60
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The SRC? I know the ROC (restricted) and GOC (general) but never heard of the SRC... Googling... ah, short range certificate, sounds like ROC which is A1 area only (VHF and EPIRB only).

Still 5 days ... I had suspected it to come with a carton of corn flakes nowadays
Nope GOC is still a big ticket. The average leisure boater does the SRC , the commercial boys tend to do the VHF ROC , which is a VHF ticket plus ITU documentation

For my sins I did the lot SRC , LRC , ROC , GOC. !!! Ver the space of a few years as time allowed , the GOC forced me to take a weeks holidays to do it !!

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