Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-05-2009, 02:56   #1
Registered User
 
PatrickS's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Espoo, Finland
Boat: "Tranquil" - '79 Westerly Berwick Ketch
Posts: 62
Hand-Held VHF When Off Ship?

OK, here are a few questions I've not been able to find satisfactory answers to, which pertain to international regulations about maritime VHF radio licensing, identification, and usage.

I've asked the Finnish radio licensing authorities, but am still waiting on a reply, and while there may be some local Finnish twists to the answers, I'm interested in getting input from you folks...

(I know what common practice is in the US, and also since a license isn't mandatory in the US, the questions aren't relevant to US practices, so these questions are specifically for folks with experience/understanding of international use of maritime VHF)


1. Can a VHF hand-held radio which is licensed for a particular boat be used elsewhere than on the boat for which the license is issued?

E.g. can one crewmember use the hand-held while in a dinghy or from a dock or the shore, to communicate with another crewmember in the boat, e.g. when transiting to/from the boat, or when performing tasks such as setting a second anchor, etc. ?

Or can one use a VHF hand-held radio on the shore or dock to communicate with a vessel on the water?

The regulations, depending on how you read them, seem to limit use of a hand-held radio to the boat itself, relegating it to being nothing but a backup to the main radio (or serving as simply the primary radio) such that the benefits of its portabiliity are greatly reduced; yet one could also interpret them in a manner which allows one to use a hand-held VHF radio for any maritime related communication required, whether on the boat, or in other locations such as a dinghy, dock, shore, marina, etc.

If the answer to the above question is 'yes', then:

2. How does one identify oneself if/when using a licensed hand-held VHF radio elsewhere than on the boat for which the license is issued?

Is there any convention similar to that used by Amateur Radio operators where a qualifying term such as "mobile" (or "maritime mobile", though in this case the 'maritime' would be redundant) would be appended to the call sign or boat name when using the hand-held off of the boat in question?

E.g. if a crew member is calling their boat named "Marie" from the dinghy, would they say "Marie this is Marie mobile"? Clearly, it would not be very useful or clear to say "Marie this is Marie" or "OF1234 this is OF1234". But maybe that's what is expected, however ambiguous.

Likewise, if in an emergency situation, the crew is forced to abandon ship, and is using a hand-held from a life raft or dinghy, wouldn't it be useful to know that they are transmitting from a location other than the boat itself, based on their identification? I.e. "... this is OF1234 mobile" clearly communicates that the station operator is not aboard the vessel.

3. If one is a guest aboard another vessel A, different from the vessel B for which the hand-held radio is licensed, and one wishes to use one's own hand-held radio aboard vessel A, and one is not acting as captain or crew of the other vessel A nor does the communication concern the other vessel A, but is between crew of the vessel B and the licensed vessel B, does one identify themselves with the name/callsign of the vessel A they are a guest on, or with the name/callsign of the vessel B for which they hold the license?

(i.e. "Hey Bob, come over in the dinghy to pick me up"...)

Or are they disallowed from using their own hand-held radio at all on other vessels?

What if the vessel A has no ship's radio license?

Thanks for all input clarifying the above,

Patrick
__________________

__________________
PatrickS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2009, 03:57   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Here’s a VHF Marine Radio Operator’s Study Guide:
http://saltspring.gulfislands.com/cc...radioguide.pdf

Technically the handheld VHF shouldn’t transmit off the ship, but the common hailing procedure is:
“Marie” this is “Tender To”.
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2009, 08:25   #3
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
if you want to sound like one of the big boys...

...calling back to the mother ship from a tender, you might hail "Marie, Marie, Shore Boat 3."

But if I were intent upon visiting S/Y Marie and calling from the dink affiliated with my own boat, S/V Whatever, I'd hail, "Marie, Marie, Tender to Whatever."
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2009, 16:48   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
I refer to the main boat as the "ship" for convenience and the following is slanted towards international practice as I have found it to be generally officially accepted for pleasure, commercial and naval vessel operations (naval vessels often being immune to regulation but they generally follow accepted/regulated practices).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
...1. Can a VHF hand-held radio which is licensed for a particular boat be used elsewhere than on the boat for which the license is issued?

E.g. can one crewmember use the hand-held while in a dinghy or from a dock or the shore, to communicate with another crewmember in the boat, e.g. when transiting to/from the boat, or when performing tasks such as setting a second anchor, etc. ?

Or can one use a VHF hand-held radio on the shore or dock to communicate with a vessel on the water?
You can use the ship's handheld VHF's on any of its tenders, dinghies, seaboats, or whatever they happen to be. The communications must be of ship's business and can be with any other vessel. Ships do this all the time during the likes of lifeboat exercises, etc.

You cannot use it from shore remote from the tender, etc eg one cannot call from the local supermarket even if the communications are regarding ship's stores. In most softly enforced places probably no one is going to worry if you use the radio on the dock while directly beside the dinghy as long as is strictly for ships business.

One should be careful in some places using the ships radio if the ship or tender is berthed, telephone communications are available and the message in the communications is for a third party. For example, I know of a case on a berthed ship (that being a big ship) where there was a fire on board and the crew called a shore station requesting a fire brigade turnout. The crew were later advised officially that as they had telephone communications available that use of VHF was not considered correct, they should have used the telephone calling the county's emergency services number (ie 999, 000, 111, whatever).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
2. How does one identify oneself if/when using a licensed hand-held VHF radio elsewhere than on the boat for which the license is issued?
You identify yourself as the tender, dinghy, seaboat of the mothership and use the motherships callsign if required. For example, one navy I know when operating off the mothership identify themselves as "{ship's name} seaboat". If on a vessel other than those then the next question applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
3. If one is a guest aboard another vessel A, different from the vessel B for which the hand-held radio is licensed, and one wishes to use one's own hand-held radio aboard vessel A, and one is not acting as captain or crew of the other vessel A nor does the communication concern the other vessel A, but is between crew of the vessel B and the licensed vessel B, does one identify themselves with the name/callsign of the vessel A they are a guest on, or with the name/callsign of the vessel B for which they hold the license?...
The licence does not belong to the radio, it belongs to the ship. If you or someone else uses your ship's handheld on another ship "A" (or on their tender) you use ship "A's" callsign and ship name. If the ship "A" that you are a guest on is flagged or domiciled in another nation to your own vessel then you cannot use your handheld yourself unless you have an operators' certificate issued by or accepted by ship "A's" country (this is not likely to be strictly enforced by most nations with soft enforcement if a pleasure vessel as long as one does have a licence from somewhere).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
...What if the vessel A has no ship's radio license?
If vessel A has no ship's licence your handheld cannot be used on board it or its tenders, etc. But your handheld can be used on any other vessel that does have a ship's licence or on the tender of that ship using that ships callsign and name. It can be used on ship A if for an emergency threatening life or property even if ship "A" does not have a licence. But in most jurisdictions a marine VHF radio capable of transmitting cannot be carried on a vessel that does not have a callsign - in my own country's case that seems to be softly regulated recognising that as long as the radio is only used for emergency communications it adds to dafety.
__________________
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 20:03   #5
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
The licence does not belong to the radio, it belongs to the ship. If you or someone else uses your ship's handheld on another ship "A" (or on their tender) you use ship "A's" callsign and ship name. If the ship "A" that you are a guest on is flagged or domiciled in another nation to your own vessel then you cannot use your handheld yourself unless you have an operators' certificate issued by or accepted by ship "A's" country
You are quite correct in stating that the license belonngs to the ship. However as you correctly stated the license is purely to use the equipment stated on the ships license only on the ship. in fact in theory any tenders etc are meant to have seperate radio licenses in themselves. Hence it is technically breaking the licensing requirements taking a portable VHF anywhere other then the ship , ie the shore another boat etc. If yor are a licensed operator you can use another ships radio system provided permission is given.

Quote:
you cannot use your handheld yourself unless you have an operators' certificate issued by or accepted by ship "A's" country
you cannot use your handheld on another ship end of story. ( as its not listed on that ships license.) Most operators certs ( if not all) are cross recognised.

SO in summary in pure technical terms to answer the OP's question

(1) NO

(2) Does not apply as (1) makes it illegal

(3) NO.

where a vessel has no ships license no marine system can be used.

Note in emergency anyone can use any radio.

Note that ships radios do not have to be used soley for ships business. Public correspondance is allowed ( ie when there was VHF to land line link ups)hence any business ships or otherwise can be carried out over a marine VHF. Obviously the license prohits broadcasting or abusive behaviour.


I am a CEPT license VHF instructor

PS in practice transgressions are ignored as they are almost impossible to enforce and in many countries ( teh carribean in particular) theres is huge shore to ship comms.
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 20:47   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,827
So in reality, it's a big "Who cares unless there's a big transgression on normal VHF use?"

IOW, "Live and let live."

Steve B.
__________________
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 21:05   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Norseman 430, Jabberwock
Posts: 691
And all those taxi cabs cruising the "waters" of the Caribbean with VHF radios under the dash !
__________________
ggray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2009, 01:45   #8
Registered User
 
Talisker's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Boat: Feeling 346 "Esprit"
Posts: 42
I was taught that when there are more than one radio is in use in or around the vessel the following identifications are used "ship's name + CONTROL" for the main or bridge radio and "ship's name + ALPHA, BRAVO etc" for the each of the handhelds.

This is common practice for crew use while docking or passing through locks. My guess it would not be legal outside the vicinity of the vessel e.g. on a shopping trip.

Thirdly, I don't think anyone would lock you up for taking a handheld with you into a liferaft after abandoning ship. At this point of time the only people you will be in contact with, will be your rescuers. "Shjp's name + LIFERAFT" may be appropriate!

PS I operate my radio in the Baltic near the Kiel canal not the Caribbean or US where apparently "anything goes".
__________________
If your boat is sinking due to osmosis, you have plenty of time to put out a distress call!
Talisker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2009, 06:41   #9
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
<snip>.....
you cannot use your handheld on another ship end of story. ( as its not listed on that ships license.)
This would ONLY apply in countries which require an equipment list as part of the station license. For instance, my ships license does not require any detail of what equipment is actually on board other than that all the transceivers must have type approval.

So if my mate turns up on board my vessel with his handheld VHF, he can legally transmit (while on board my vessel) using my callsign providing he has the appropriate radio operators certificate and his handheld has suitable type approval.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 06:02   #10
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
So if my mate turns up on board my vessel with his handheld VHF, he can legally transmit (while on board my vessel) using my callsign providing he has the appropriate radio operators certificate and his handheld has suitable type approval.
Yes thats right.

Quote:
Thirdly, I don't think anyone would lock you up for taking a handheld with you into a liferaft after abandoning ship. At this point of time the only people you will be in contact with, will be your rescuers. "Shjp's name + LIFERAFT" may be appropriate
Operation of any marine radio in a distress situation is allowed irrespective of licenses
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 12:33   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,827
In parts of Alaska, channel 16 is a party line.

"Where's George? Tell him dinner's ready."

"I'll send him home right away. We're just finishing up on the tractor."


In Mexico you hear (probably drunk) pescaderos singing on 16, especially at night.

Steve B.
__________________
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 15:22   #12
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
When I was on Green Turtle Cay several years ago, it seemed everyone used VHF for whatever they wanted. Here in Michigan, you might get some traffic on 16, but if you change to any other channel, no ones home. I wouldn't worry too much about the rules if using secondary channels in areas outside of major commercial ports. Seems like the world has a few bigger problems then improper radio use.
__________________
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2009, 22:04   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
...I am a CEPT license VHF instructor
Your being a CEPT instructor has led you into the error of assuming that the requirements of the CEPT member countries represents the INTERNATIONAL practice/requirements that the original poster asks about. In fact most of the world (including all countries outside of Europe) are not CEPT members.

My post represents the international practice asked for and is factually correct. And as others have represented from their experience many places are more relaxed regarding radio use than I indicated - that not necessarily because of lack of will to police them as in some countries a soft approach is taken with pleasure boaters in order to encourage the carriage of VHF for safety reasons.

Should your being a CEPT instructor make you familiar with the requirements of Finland (it being a CEPT member and apparantly the home country of the original poster) you could have best served him by limiting your comments to that rather than confusingly claiming your own parochial requirements apply to the world.

Even within CEPT, as I expect you know, there is in at least the one CEPT country I have some familiarity with the easy possibility of addressing the main concern of the original poster allowing one to very feely use a portable VHF on other vessels but you do not allow for that in your response.

Note: I no longer post to this forum except for the sake of good order when someone has countered a past post of mine with false facts where safety is involved.
__________________
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2009, 03:56   #14
Registered User
 
bitman's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: EU
Boat: EliBit, Evolution 25
Posts: 140
we have a ships license for the fixed and portable which covers those radio's and i have a personal license on my name what allows me to use my (other) portable on any boat.
__________________
bitman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2009, 04:49   #15
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
my ships license /////

providing he has the appropriate radio operators certificate and his handheld has suitable type approval.
No "ships License" is required for VHF in Australia. There is a general class license in place for VHF radios on boats. What is required is an operators license. The class license also covers 27 meg some uhf and the use of radar.

The class license mentioned below is applicable to any ships station (including a Hand held) and authorises any use on any shipe (including therefore a tender) the class license specifically says that a ship station cant be used on land (Land based VHF e.g. coast gurard etc have a different license).

So - Short story is when in Australia you can use any VHF on any recreational boat (and a lot of others) - not on land - and only if you have an appropriate license.

FROM AMSA

Licensing of ship and coast stations
Class licences authorise the operation of a number of devices commonly used on vessels. These include:

27 MHz and VHF marine radio equipment;
mobile and satellite phones;
Inmarsat communications equipment;
marine radar;
low power on-board UHF equipment;
EPIRBs; and
Citizens Band (CB) radio equipment.
Class licences are open, standing authorities that allow anyone to operate particular radiocommunications equipment provided that the operation and the device are in keeping with the condition of the licence. Class licences do not have to be applied for and no licence fees are payable. If any condition of licence is breached (for example, operating on a frequency not mentioned in the Class Licence), the operator is no longer authorised to operate under the Class Licence. In this instance, the operator would be liable for prosecution.

Individual apparatus licences from ACMA are required for vessels carrying MF/HF marine radio equipment (Maritime ship licence - Ship Station Class B), trading vessels under Commonwealth survey (Maritime Ship licence - Ship Station Class C) and all coast stations. Applicants for individual ship and coast station licences should complete an Application for apparatus licence(s) form (R057) and, for assigned stations, the Additional station information form (R077). Licence fees should be included with the licence application.

The following information papers about marine radiocommunications licensing are published on the ACMA website:

Maritime Coast Licence Information Paper;
Maritime Ship Licence Information Paper; and
Maritime Ship Stations - 27 MHz and VHF Information Paper.
Further information about distress beacons (including EPIRBs) and CB radios is available.


Operator qualifications
VHF and MF/HF marine radio equipment and Inmarsat (A, B, C) Satellite communications equipment carried on board a vessel must be under the control of a qualified operator at all times. All coast stations must also be under the control of a qualified operator.

Most operators choose to obtain a Marine Radio Operators Certificate of Proficiency (MROCP), which covers the operation of both VHF and MF/HF equipment. The Marine Radio Operators VHF Certificate of Proficiency (MROVCP) has a somewhat simpler syllabus, but only covers the operation of VHF equipment. The Marine Satellite Communications Certificate of Endorsement (Satellite Endorsement) may be added to either the MROCP or the MROVCP if use of Inmarsat equipment is required.

Inmarsat-C equipment that only supports the operation of a Vessel Monitoring System does not require operator qualifications.

Many TAFEs and marine organisations offer courses leading to examination for the MROCP. Such courses are not compulsory and many candidates for examination successfully self study. However, the examination for the Satellite Endorsement should follow conclusion of an approved course of study, including practical instruction in the use of Inmarsat communications equipment. The Australian Maritime College (AMC) provides the marine examination and certificate service on behalf of ACMA. The AMC can provide the details of organisations and individuals offering courses and or conducting exams.

Operators of a Ship Station Class C or a Major Coast Station are required to hold a GMDSS General Operators Certificate of Proficiency (GOCP) issued by AMSA. This is a higher level qualification involving detailed theoretical and practical knowledge of marine radio and satellite communications equipment. AMSA has accredited a number of educational institutions to conduct GOCP examinations at the conclusion of a relevant course of instruction. For further information, licensees should contact AMSA.

Information about operator qualifications is contained in the ACMA Information Papers Maritime Coast Stations - Certificates of Proficiency and Maritime Ship Stations - Certificates of Proficiency. Information about operator qualifications is also contained in a fact sheet entitled Marine Certificates of Proficiency.
__________________

__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Group buy of HX850S HAND HELD VHF GPS bene505 Marine Electronics 7 18-04-2009 16:55
Hand held spot light bottleinamessage Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 17 09-05-2008 20:31
Hand crafted boat/ship models knottybuoyz Off Topic Forum 13 18-04-2008 12:21
Hand held VHF and land transmission rsn48 Marine Electronics 17 02-11-2006 16:08



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:50.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.