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Old 24-02-2014, 12:01   #121
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

[QUOTE=letsgetsailing3;1476104]I believe your recommendation was that the moorings should be free.

While there are laws about derelict boats, if the moorings were free how would you know at what point boats became abandoned?

I also said time limits would be totally acceptable so people dont abuse a privelage granted to them.

You can make a case about the cost, but I think one can also argue that $350 is cheaper than a local slip in your area. I'm assuming that fee includes some amenities, like pumpouts, toilets, dinghy docks, parking lots, etc.

Ive stayed at several liveaboard and private condo slips in the area for less.

We would all like for life to be free, but it just isn't -- at least not near civilization. There is a cost for infrastructure, and we all have to somehow share it. We all have different ideas about how much infrastructure we require, but we can't honestly deny the need for it, can we?

Beaufort SC offers the amenities because it brings in revenue to local business, obviously they see economic gain for the area in doing so. Jacksonville has free pumpout on the water and offers free slips for limited stays in 3 locations, all prime. They must see an economic gain. The government runs on taxes its not a for profit,or shouldnt be, organization.



I live in Florida, so I am interested in any and all opinions on this. I'm certain that I don't know the real idea or purpose behind the legislation, but right now my impression is that it protects boaters to some degree

Huh? protects what boaters how?

and limits local jurisdictions in their ability to regulate transient boaters.

Again, Huh? How is granting them the right to prohibit anchoring in large tracts of protected water "limiting their ability to regulate"? I see it enabling their ability to regulate where its never been allowed to regulate as per federal waterway mandates.


If this isn't the case, I'd like to know about it, so I can make informed decisions and votes on the issue.
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Old 24-02-2014, 13:38   #122
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

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Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
I live in Florida, so I am interested in any and all opinions on this. I'm certain that I don't know the real idea or purpose behind the legislation, but right now my impression is that it protects boaters to some degree

Huh? protects what boaters how?
Florida state law limits municipalities from regulating anchoring. It's always been that way, but the code was ambiguous. As municipalities enacted their own ordinances and tried to enforce them, the courts instructed the muni's on state law telling them they can't do that. FWC staff re-wrote the code so it would be more understandable. As multiple municipalities started screaming about local control, a compromise at the state level was a pilot program whereby a municipality could apply for a submerged land lease, install a mooring field, and then regulate anchoring in close proximity (~150') to the mooring field.

Of course, those that were anchoring and got displaced by the mooring field don't see this as a good thing. I personally think mooring fields in popular anchorages are good (although it does eliminate the entertainment when 2 boats anchor too close to each other ).

So, this protects the boaters from a hodgepodge of muni ordinances that ban anchoring just because the waterfront owners don't want to look at boats. If the muni is serious, they put skin in the game by installing/operating moorings.

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Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
and limits local jurisdictions in their ability to regulate transient boaters.

Again, Huh? How is granting them the right to prohibit anchoring in large tracts of protected water "limiting their ability to regulate"? I see it enabling their ability to regulate where its never been allowed to regulate as per federal waterway mandates.


If this isn't the case, I'd like to know about it, so I can make informed decisions and votes on the issue.
Again, municipalities are banning anchoring, with state approval (including public comment period), in lieu of moorings, not in large swaths of space. This is seen as positive by the general cruising community.
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Old 24-02-2014, 14:47   #123
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

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Florida state law limits municipalities from regulating anchoring. It's always been that way, but the code was ambiguous. As municipalities enacted their own ordinances and tried to enforce them, the courts instructed the muni's on state law telling them they can't do that.]

Its federal law that prohibits municipalities from regulating openly navigable waters as the federal case in marco proved, the laws were breaking federal law not state law.


[So, this protects the boaters from a hodgepodge of muni ordinances that ban anchoring just because the waterfront owners don't want to look at boats. If the muni is serious, they put skin in the game by installing/operating moorings.]

FWC is a federal and state agency and has no business having anything to do with writing code. This is done by the legislative branch not those whos job is to enforce the laws that are there.

When St pete got its mooring field put in it effectively banned anchoring anywhere with sheltered water near the city. The only exception was near the harborage as expressly put in the programs outlines this area was not included in the program, what did the city do? Put no anchoring construction zone buoys in. I anchor there often just to see if anyone challenges me.



['Again, municipalities are banning anchoring, with state approval (including public comment period), in lieu of moorings, not in large swaths of space. This is seen as positive by the general cruising community.

Maybe for those of you sitting in slips that go out for a daysail occasionally. I seriously dont think you speak for the cruising community that is out there cruising.
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Old 24-02-2014, 15:07   #124
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

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Maybe for those of you sitting in slips that go out for a daysail occasionally. I seriously dont think you speak for the cruising community that is out there cruising.
Cruisers I speak with would, in general, rather be on a mooring than an over-crowded anchorage.

Some mooring fields are very successful, some not so much.

If cruisers don't like mooring fields, why is there a waiting list to get a mooring in Boot Key Harbor during the winter??
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Old 24-02-2014, 16:28   #125
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

I frequent boot key about a half dozen times a year. My dinghy is sitting center on one of the pamphlets they offer. I stay a day or two occasionally near marker one to run in for groceries on the way by. I dont think Ive ever seen full occupancy but then again I dont spend much time there. Key west is much less expensive for the cruiser. $30 a day for dinghy vs $26 a week at kw.
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Old 24-02-2014, 17:05   #126
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

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Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
I frequent boot key about a half dozen times a year. My dinghy is sitting center on one of the pamphlets they offer. I stay a day or two occasionally near marker one to run in for groceries on the way by. I dont think Ive ever seen full occupancy but then again I dont spend much time there. Key west is much less expensive for the cruiser. $30 a day for dinghy vs $26 a week at kw.
BKH is usually full during Feb. & March.

I believe the point is BKH (as an example) can now hold 226 boats on mooring balls, more than you can fit safely at anchor in the same amount of space. Yes, it's $300/month, but that includes shoreside services. If $300/month breaks a cruising budget, then yes, that cruiser has been shutout by local rule.

And yes, $300/month plus the liveaboard only rule will conceivably keep the derelict boats away (derelict is a subjective term). Which is what waterview landowners complain about the loudest.
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Old 24-02-2014, 17:48   #127
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

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Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
I frequent boot key about a half dozen times a year. My dinghy is sitting center on one of the pamphlets they offer. I stay a day or two occasionally near marker one to run in for groceries on the way by. I dont think Ive ever seen full occupancy but then again I dont spend much time there. Key west is much less expensive for the cruiser. $30 a day for dinghy vs $26 a week at kw.
There is a pix of my boat on google streetview looking East from the North coal dock. Except for the fast boat it was the only boat at the Dry Tortugas anchorage.

But I spent most of the time at boot key. Currently there is a waiting list for balls and has been for a couple of months. During the summer there is plenty of space. The balls and anchorage (if the balls are all taken) are much more protected than what Key West offers. My personal opinion is that Boot Key has a much better ambiance than Key West for boaters, as opposed to posers.

While it is true I can find places to dock along seawalls next to condos or private homes around Key Vaca the problem is there are laws prohibiting sleeping on the boat for more than a couple of nights in a row. Maybe you could sneak around this for a while but I know boaters who have had condo owners turn them in.

My Dad moved to Miami in 1954 and I have lived in Florida since then. Obviously there has been a huge increase in the number of boats. There has also been a huge increase in the population. Estimates are that about one third to one half of the automobile Miami-Dade County have no insurance of any kind. I would bet the numbers for boats are even larger.

Sorry to say as the number of people and number of boats reaches a certain level more laws and restrictions will be imposed, even if I don't like it.
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Old 24-02-2014, 18:11   #128
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pirate Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Cruisers I speak with would, in general, rather be on a mooring than an over-crowded anchorage.

Some mooring fields are very successful, some not so much.

If cruisers don't like mooring fields, why is there a waiting list to get a mooring in Boot Key Harbor during the winter??
Exactly.

Allow me to introduce readers to the gorilla in the room: Many modern sailors who call themselves "cruisers" are daysailers plain and simple. They have the dough to buy a boat that is larger and more complex than they are comfortable with. They bought in without experience, or even book knowledge.

While they may talk a good game, and have a sailor hat, they are scared spitless, without the slightest idea of maintaining the systems on the boat. They travel in packs. They motorsail without a clue or concern to sailtrim. They wait, stacked like cordwood, for "weather windows" to get to the next beach bash/potluck.

The mooring field allows them to be just as swell as the next guy without the worry and effort of seamanship.

That was too easy. Next question?
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Old 24-02-2014, 18:29   #129
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

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Exactly.

Allow me to introduce readers to the gorilla in the room: Many modern sailors who call themselves "cruisers" are daysailers plain and simple. They have the dough to buy a boat that is larger and more complex than they are comfortable with. They bought in without experience, or even book knowledge.

While they may talk a good game, and have a sailor hat, they are scared spitless, without the slightest idea of maintaining the systems on the boat. They travel in packs. They motorsail without a clue or concern to sailtrim. They wait, stacked like cordwood, for "weather windows" to get to the next beach bash/potluck.

The mooring field allows them to be just as swell as the next guy without the worry and effort of seamanship.

That was too easy. Next question?
HEY! When I finally buy the perfect cat, that remark will resemble myself At least until I can become a "salty" vet. I think one thing we can all agree on is OUR government has infringed on every right our grandfathers have enjoyed and it wont stop unless we stand up... I'm not speaking of "cheap" cruisers or expensive sailors, just basic dilution of our rights. I have a beautiful view of water and sunsets yada yada, but think the occasional boat anchored in view is nice. Yes, that opinion would change if it was abandoned. Therein lies the real issue... Do I have a solve all parties involved answer? Nope. But i'm inclined to believing more rules won't help
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Old 24-02-2014, 18:59   #130
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

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Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
Exactly.

Allow me to introduce readers to the gorilla in the room: Many modern sailors who call themselves "cruisers" are daysailers plain and simple. They have the dough to buy a boat that is larger and more complex than they are comfortable with. They bought in without experience, or even book knowledge.

While they may talk a good game, and have a sailor hat, they are scared spitless, without the slightest idea of maintaining the systems on the boat. They travel in packs. They motorsail without a clue or concern to sailtrim. They wait, stacked like cordwood, for "weather windows" to get to the next beach bash/potluck.

The mooring field allows them to be just as swell as the next guy without the worry and effort of seamanship.

That was too easy. Next question?
Is this the stage of a thread when people disagree it is time to start doing the insulting name calling? After all it appears to you that people who want to catch a mooring at a crowded place instead of doing a bumper boat now are the ones who can not sail, fix their boats, are scared, and have poor seamanship.

What a bunch of crap!
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Old 24-02-2014, 19:53   #131
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

I havent paid to stay for a month at a time for a long time. When I did it was because I had several boats I was working on in that marina and it was just too convenient not to. when Im cruising and not working I rarely stay anywhere more than 3-4 days. Long enough for laundry, groceries, fuel and water and maybe repairs if needed. When I stayed in st pete it was because I had a following of customers in the city marina who no longer get my services. Cruising to me is about moving around and seeing and staying in as many places as possible. Not paying to tie up to a mooring ball and going ashore in the same place every day.
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Old 24-02-2014, 19:59   #132
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

"A derelict boat won't have insurance."
Funny thing, but all these issues are just the same ones that were argued by horseless carriage drivers a hundred years ago when they were told they'd have to get licensed and insured because too damn many bad apples were wreaking havoc and running off without paying for it.

In NY, if your insurance lapses for any reason, it takes about 24 hours for your insurer to automatically notify the state and then you're in waist-deep kimchi, because the Sheriffs get your license plate and start looking around to see if they can located and seize the car. Automatic plate scanners make that simple, too.

There's no reason the same thing can't be done with boats. No documentation on the stern? No registration numbers? No problem, arrest the boat and haul it away then and there, before it can become a derelict menace. That already happens on cars, too. There may be a dozen VINs stamped and etched on most cars today, three in sight, the others buried. Get pulled over for a routine check of any kind and get caught driving a car without a FEDERAL VIN on it? Tell it to the judge, no one else is going to listen. You won't be driving it home.

States' rights? Sure, right now each greedy little fiefdom wants to collect their own fees for licensing and registration of everything...and interstate commerce already is adding a uniform federal layer on top of that. I wouldn't be surprised to see our drivers' licenses "harmonized" and "federalized" at some point, and there's no reason watercraft couldn't be treated the same way, under the same logic. You want to use a federal navigable waterway, which is there for the purposes of commerce? Bingo, get your federal registration number and federal liability insurance, and the states get bypassed and there's the easy way to arrest the derelicts before they can happen.

All the rest is details. Lock a committee in a room with bad food and clogged toilets, and they'll hammer it out within 48 hours.

Loss of freedom? Sure, but boaters will lose it for the same reason everyone else has: Because we haven't taken the responsibility on ourselves, and we've left the irresponsible boaters to put a burden on everyone.

Someone pretty much always knows where that derelict came from, and someone pretty much never speaks up. The rest is pretty much expectable, unavoidable, and just karma coming back to bite.
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Old 24-02-2014, 20:02   #133
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

So I'm no suggesting removing existing mooring fields.

I'm suggesting we stand FIRM on not allowing any additional anchoring laws.

The pilot program was designed to experiment with different laws that would be then adopted statewide.

I think this year represents a good opportunity to get rid of it (like it was supposed to end) and I doubt the legislature will have the time or desire to change anything in the current statewide law in an election year.
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Old 24-02-2014, 20:43   #134
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

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"A derelict boat won't have insurance."
.
Hum. So how many here have been hit by a un-insured derelict boat. Many I've seen have pretty substantial ground tackle. Most boaters avoid derelict boats like the plague.

Yes there are some bad apples in the down and out boaters. But most are just plain folks with a bit of bad luck with no where else to go. Take away the boat, and you've just made another homeless person living on your streets.

Don't like the Down on their luck boaters, don't anchor near them.

While I currently have insurance, I am thinking of dropping it, as it mainly seems to enrich the insurance companies, who will find any reason not to pay a claim.
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Old 24-02-2014, 21:01   #135
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Re: Florida Mooring and Anchoring Pilot Program Survey

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Hum. So how many here have been hit by a un-insured derelict boat. Many I've seen have pretty substantial ground tackle. Most boaters avoid derelict boats like the plague.

Yes there are some bad apples in the down and out boaters. But most are just plain folks with a bit of bad luck with no where else to go. Take away the boat, and you've just made another homeless person living on your streets.

Don't like the Down on their luck boaters, don't anchor near them.

While I currently have insurance, I am thinking of dropping it, as it mainly seems to enrich the insurance companies, who will find any reason not to pay a claim.

I have!!! (been hit by derelict boat)No big deal though, i didnt go looking for the owner of the boat that ended up on its side on tank Island. He had enough to worry about, I just had a stanchion to fix. Im glad Im on a plan to leave this country. Ive found third world folks to just be a nicer crowd to hang around. Not every Joe wants to legislate you out of existance like I see here. It seems I offend some because I dont carry insurance. Now somebody wants scannable national license plates on every boat and wants people arrested if they dont have insurance. While your at it install check points along the waterways every mile or so where you can be searched and have your travel papers checked. Go hide in your gated community and leave us alone.
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