Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

[bill352]

Originally Posted by Snore

This is not a have vs have not issue. It is a simple finance issue. One cannot consume the use of pump outs, assume medical services will be there for you, assume police protection, without contributing to the economy. If you don't, I am....

Well, I feel bad now. I drove up to Hilton Head from Florida a while ago, and breezed right through Georgia without ever buying a thing. I did stop at the rest area, though, to use their "pump-out facilities" and assumed (rightly, I'm sure) that medical services and police protection were readily available if I needed them.

How much do I owe?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by bill352

Well, I feel bad now. I drove up to Hilton Head from Florida a while ago, and breezed right through Georgia without ever buying a thing. I did stop at the rest area, though, to use their "pump-out facilities" and assumed (rightly, I'm sure) that medical services and police protection were readily available if I needed them.

How much do I owe?

$2,071.66

[bill352]

Originally Posted by BandB

$2,071.66

Check's in the mail. I wouldn't want to be one of those guys.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by bill352

Check's in the mail. I wouldn't want to be one of those guys.

Wifey B: We should feel extra guilty right now. We just spent the week in Myrtle Beach as our "sister" was having a baby and we wanted to be there. But we stayed in a hotel owned by family and they refuse to let us pay. We paid no taxes. No fees. We did spend a little at restaurants but then the nicest restaurant we went to is owned by friends and they wouldn't let us pay. We did give the staff enormous tips instead. Bad bad us. We got far more out of our trip than we spent.

Seriously, I don't ever think of what we spend vs what we get. My hubby's the accounting one and he doesn't even do that. And he can be obsessive. In fact, I hope I spend more than the services I use. I hope I don't use the fire department or police department or Emergency room. It's like life insurance. I sure the heck don't want to cash in on it.

I can't think of people on the basis of what they spend. We own stores, so should we use electric shock on people who shop and don't buy? My hubby is sensitive to the issue too because we do know people who put those poorer than them down, who judge based on money. We don't consider those people friends. We refuse to adopt a Country Club attitude.

Oh and we freaking love all real boaters and we hate abandoned derelicts and we aren't very fond of loud drunks. We just got home and funny after all this we went up on the balcony and just looked at all the boats we could see, especially those anchored. Thanks to them all for giving us such a beautiful view.

We also are so appreciative of all those in all the places we visit who are so friendly and hospitable. And we don't let the bad a...s and such detract from it.

Now everyone just needs to learn to play together and find a way to have anchoring and mooring but without the negatives such as sunken garbage bins that were once boats.

[RKsailsolo]

This is the most interesting and insightful thread I participate in on this forum. Acknowledging all posters who contribute their ideas to add to our collective knowledge on this topic.

[Jammer Six]

Originally Posted by Snore

One cannot consume the use of pump outs, assume medical services will be there for you, assume police protection, without contributing to the economy. If you don't, I am....

Snore, every last one of those services contribute directly to the local economy, regardless of who pays for them. That's point one.

Point two is that you still have the expense until and unless you eliminate the service, and I can't imagine Florida is willing to do without most of those services (police, fire, medical) just so they won't have boats. I would want them whether or not we had boats here.

If you isolate the services that cruisers use, and even if we concede that cruisers don't pay for them, you're still putting local labor out of work. That is the most money you could save, and I seriously doubt anyone would notice the dip in their taxes. I doubt any reduction in taxes from such a small spending cut would even occur.

Point three is that at some point, things that have no value on the ledger shouldn't be eliminated. Public libraries, for instance. Just because, well, reasons. You could probably avoid your cut of such foolishness (local libraries, public schools, streetlights) by moving to Montana and joining the Freemen, (or whatever they're calling themselves these days) but I'm happy to pay the extra penny and a half for public marinas and whatever other idiocy makes it through the political process for the things I do get out of the deal.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by bill352

Well, I feel bad now. I drove up to Hilton Head from Florida a while ago, and breezed right through Georgia without ever buying a thing. I did stop at the rest area, though, to use their "pump-out facilities" and assumed (rightly, I'm sure) that medical services and police protection were readily available if I needed them.

How much do I owe?

Originally Posted by Jammer Six

Snore, every last one of those services contribute directly to the local economy, regardless of who pays for them. That's point one.

Point two is that you still have the expense until and unless you eliminate the service, and I can't imagine Florida is willing to do without most of those services (police, fire, medical) just so they won't have boats. I would want them whether or not we had boats here.

If you isolate the services that cruisers use, and even if we concede that cruisers don't pay for them, you're still putting local labor out of work. That is the most money you could save, and I seriously doubt anyone would notice the dip in their taxes. I doubt any reduction in taxes from such a small spending cut would even occur.

Point three is that at some point, things that have no value on the ledger shouldn't be eliminated. Public libraries, for instance. Just because, well, reasons. You could probably avoid your cut of such foolishness (local libraries, public schools, streetlights) by moving to Montana and joining the Freemen, (or whatever they're calling themselves these days) but I'm happy to pay the extra penny and a half for public marinas and whatever other idiocy makes it through the political process for the things I do get out of the deal.

Rather poor form to quote from the middle of a thread gents. You will note that subsequently Coops called me on a lack of objective data and I yielded.


I am not willing to research the existence or absence of hard data. Absent data this entire dialog is subjective and has nominal value.

[RKsailsolo]

Originally Posted by scuba0_1

I find it strange that you think people who use anchors don't contribute to the economy most people don't come by this lifestyle without somewhere along the line paying taxes. and working extremely hard. There boat is registered taxes they pay for food fule taxes there paid for the e boat it was taxed. Owning a boat and not paying a Martina certainly dose not mean no taxes thus they deserve all the rights we have as a home or boat owner. Marina or not.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Agree with scuba here. My two year plan to buy the new or relatively new sailboat, equipped to be self contained for extended FL coastal cruising from a FL home base will place me in snore's ill fated category as I will take great pleasure in going where and when I please, dropping anchor responsibly, and use the systems on my vessel to live off the grid for a while. Forgetting the purchase of the boat and all the cash that generates for the local economy, the upkeep and supplies used will be purchased locally adding a constant stream of revenue. (local = somewhere in FL).

I do respect that snore acknowledged his statement was factually unsupported and therefore just his opinion but as someone added in this thread, many less informed readers will assume the opposing view has factual evidence to support it and that breeds more ignorance on this important topic. It is important as FL is unique with so many waterfront miles and different coasts that it rivals a geographically remote cruising ground likely not in the US or if it is, it is spread over many states, i.e., the great loop. The multiple revenue streams generated from my FL cruising and anchoring activity directly grow local FL economies and contradict the idea. For many like me, keeping our federally protected rights intact preserves that revenue as lifeblood to local economies. Take that away, or choke it irresponsibly and I will make other plans.

It appears to me that a well informed view will look a little deeper and more completely at this.

[Waterway Guide]

We have spent a lot of our cruising time in Florida, and we prefer to anchor most of the time. For us, this preference has little to do with cost. Anchoring for the night surrounded by water, even in a condo-lined, Broward County cove, is much more pleasant than a marina, where we may have no view other than towering megayachts.

Anchoring is also more convenient and much more pleasant for our cats, who must remain cooped up in the cabin at a marina, but can roam the decks freely enjoying the sights and smells when at anchor.

Nonetheless, we generally stay at a marina about 1/4 of the time in order to easily provision, do laundry, rinse off the boat, take some serious showers, enjoy a town and its restaurants and attractions, and find marine parts, etc.... Yes, we could often do most of this by dinghy (and have, at times), but the nominal cost of a slip and cooped up cats is worth the convenience. We've spent a lot of money in Florida (yes, even for medical services!). Even when we go to the Bahamas, we'll spend $1,000s in Florida to stock up on everything from wine to engine spares to canned goods before crossing the Gulf Stream.

As waterfront homeowners near the Chesapeake Bay, we love when boats anchor in our cove (we've had boats with ports of call as far as San Francisco, Germany, and France). I like to dinghy or kayak out to say "hi" and ask if they need anything, including a ride to the store. The conversation often leads to at least a cocktail hour on their boat, or on our boat, dock or deck.

It's not likely, but what would we do if boaters anchored there and lived on the boat for months? What if someone anchored a boat there and just left it? In the first case I would have already introduced myself and found out a little about them, plus I'd make sure they are pumping out, or I would report them (our cove has enough nutrient runoff already), but then what, especially if they don't seem to be able to support themselves? There are laws that would cover the abandoned boat issue (but would anyone actually do anything about it?). These issues should be the focus, not "residential buffer zones."

And let's not get hung up on the 300' number – ANY residential buffer, even 25', will cause lots of problems for cruisers and for law enforcement, and confusion for homeowners. Whatever the number, homeowners will know there is a buffer, and think that the boat anchored near their property is too close. Then they call the cops. Then the cops come out and talk to the boater and to the homeowner. The boater feels hassled, and the homeowner feels unsatisfied. It's just a very bad idea.

So there's 2 more of my cents.

[frgeorgeh]

Originally Posted by Coops

Never, ever, send me money and never tell me what a great person I am.

Coops.

This is getting good!

[RKsailsolo]

Thank you waterway guide for your leadership in this critically important space. It is important to all FL residents, FL businesses and FL visitors regardless of boats.

Keeping the whole picture in mind, let's keep focus on what we CAN do about the few irresponsible minority vs wasting these precious public resources on the wrong things that do not benefit the public.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Waterway Guide

– ANY residential buffer, even 25', will cause lots of problems for cruisers and for law enforcement, and confusion for homeowners. Whatever the number, homeowners will know there is a buffer, and think that the boat anchored near their property is too close. Then they call the cops. Then the cops come out and talk to the boater and to the homeowner. The boater feels hassled, and the homeowner feels unsatisfied. It's just a very bad idea.

So there's 2 more of my cents.

Actually I don't think a 25' buffer would change a thing because I don't think boaters anchor closer than that. The general requirement today is to not block the ingress or egress from someone's dock. 25' is about what is required for that. I've just not encountered a problem of someone blocking my dock or seeing them block other private docks. If I saw someone anchored in such a manner that the swing might force them to hit, I'd simply have a talk with them and advise that the wind might well shift on them and then their boat could be damaged.

99.9% of those who anchor are no problem. There are really only a few circumstances I've seen as issues. One is the abandoned derelict boat. We need means to deal with that. Second, is the one you mention of pumping waste into the water. I would report that. In fact, I'd likely video that. The third I think of is "disturbance of the peace." If they had one loud drunken all night party, I'd let it slide. But if that was a regular event, I'd call law enforcement and the existing laws would serve the purpose. This is as I'd react to any neighbor. I don't mind the occasional disturbance, but if it becomes regular, then it's a problem. Fortunately, in my entire life, I've never had to report someone emptying waste near my property or being a regular disturbance. I did one video and call the police on someone dumping their garbage in an illegal spot on a neighboring property. I was 16 and my neighbor and I were riding around and filmed that. They were given two choices by the sheriff. Either clean up the entire mess, what they and others had dumped, or get a number of citations. The entire family spent the next day cleaning up a mess. It was an area in the country that for some reason people had just decided it was fine to dump stuff. Was left clean and no one dumped again.

[zboss]

This thread is confusing derelict boats and regular old people that keep their boats in good shape and like to anchor out. Unfortunately, if the boating community can't effectively agree on or distinguish between the two, how can we expect that the folks asking for new regulations or approving new regulations (and that know nothing about the boating community) be able to make appropriate decisions?

In the end, if you anchor or not, any new regulations are going to hurt you. For example, lets assume the anchoring legislation goes through. Who do you think is going to be required to keep accurate records as to your whereabouts? Day in and Day out. Are we going to have to start phoning in our position every time we move? Is your boat going to be required to have an AIS transponder so they can track you?

Its also going to increase taxes and bureaucracy. Local munis will pass legislation and then go back to the state and say "Hey! We don't have any money to enforce these statutes you said we should enforce! How about you start up a new fund and send us some cash so we can hire more police and buy more boats? And since we have more boats we will need better facilities and we will have to hire some more mechanics and maintenance guys.

[Snore]

As I continue to follow this thread I was thinking of how the National Park Service handles permits.

Perhaps the solution is to have designated mooring fields that allow stays based on local regulations. Elsewhere, allow anchoring for up to x (2?) nights in any "area" that is within 500 feet of a bulkhead. And at no time within 25 feet of a shoreline.


This would allow longer stays in the primitive areas (no bulkheads) and avoid derelicts that drop anchors wherever. The issue will be a reasonable definition of "area". The intent is to prevent someone from moving thier anchor 3 feet to claim they moved thier boat. This will also avoid boats dropping anchor on top of waterfront homes and condos. While I love to watch the boats (and dream of retirement) as they head up/down the ICW a little space would be nice.

Thoughts?

[Snore]

Follow up thought. One need not enforce the law, simply react to complaints or install. Web Cam like Lake Boca