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Old 22-08-2014, 09:21   #181
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

The Pilot Program was the start toward trying to address some conflicts. It was specifically designed not to let cities go out and do anything they decided and not to repeat episodes like the 90 day limitation and court case.

The state wants to define ultimately what municipalities can and cannot do.

Extreme proposals will keep coming. Hopefully moderate and workable solutions will be found.
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Old 22-08-2014, 10:17   #182
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

To get an idea of the direction these regulations can take if we take a do nothing attitude, one only has to read this recent posting on cruisersnet, Anchoring Restrictions Coming to the North East Cruising Grounds | Cruisers' Net . Chuck
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Old 22-08-2014, 10:32   #183
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

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Originally Posted by AnchorageGuy View Post
To get an idea of the direction these regulations can take if we take a do nothing attitude, one only has to read this recent posting on cruisersnet, Anchoring Restrictions Coming to the North East Cruising Grounds | Cruisers' Net . Chuck
Exactly. The kind of situation this is all designed to try to avoid.

I would also say for one talking about not being able to find Florida anchorages, they just aren't looking in the right places. Your publications, Cruisers Net, Waterway Guide, Active Captain. Someone was speaking yesterday of no anchorages in an area and in 30 second I'd found six on Active Captain. When we woke up this morning and looked out, we saw some beautiful boats anchored, one that must have come in late last night and was especially beautiful. Thanks guys for giving us such scenery.
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Old 22-08-2014, 18:21   #184
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

No one is advocating doing nothing. That's a combination of a Red Herring and a Slippery Slope.
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Old 22-08-2014, 20:39   #185
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

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No one is advocating doing nothing. That's a combination of a Red Herring and a Slippery Slope.
Actually there are a lot of people advocating doing nothing, saying there's no problem and there should be no limitations placed on boaters. These of course are offset by those saying eliminated all anchoring.
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Old 22-08-2014, 20:42   #186
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

I should have said no one is advocating doing nothing in response to government action.
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Old 22-08-2014, 20:56   #187
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

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I should have said no one is advocating doing nothing in response to government action.
What? What government action? Can you please translate what you're saying?
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Old 22-08-2014, 22:16   #188
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

Future strategy: Anchor late, leave early?
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Old 23-08-2014, 01:35   #189
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

I'm late to the discussion, but I read this whole thread and most of the others on this subject over the last several years. I am a former FL resident, and a boater who comes to FL about once a year. Here are several thoughts:

Anyone who thinks there are any anchored people who do not contribute at all to the economy are simply wrong. For facts I offer this: All people eat, and none that I have ever heard of can produce all the food they need aboard, therefore they buy food. We all know this is a silly discussion anyway; the vast majority of us buy more than food. We need fuel, take tours and buy stuff at stores. Non issue.

Anyone that thinks all cruising grounds are the same and "...why does FL need to be different?" really doesn't get it. I'm from Texas. We have a VERY small boating community in relation to both the state population, and the coastline. FL, on the other hand, has a stupid HUGE boating community, even based on the huge coastline. I live on a boat that looks over Clear Lake, a brackish estuary attached to Galveston Bay, and basically yachting central for Texas. There are, at most, 5 boats anchored full time in the Lake (2 are what I would call a derelict). If this was FL, it would be 500. I regularly cruise up and down the TX coast. It is exceedingly rare that I see another cruising type boat anchored. We even have a previous military base, now a wildlife refuge, with free docks and space for 8 boats. I go there several times a year, and very rarely see anyone. Friends of mine spent 6 weeks there last year, no problem. What would that be like in FL? Texas does not have an anchoring issue, FL does. Different place, different rules.

I love FL. I love the clean water, the relatively deep water (compared to TX) and the variety. And when I go there I spend money. This gives me a say. I can't vote per se, but I can choose to spend my money elsewhere. To those that say "It's a FL issue" you're simply wrong. FL spends MILLIONS to attract tourists, it's a huge part of their income as a state.

So here's my thing. I'm a panhandle guy. I love the little treed anchorages and sandy islands. I have been going to the area around Pirates Cove for years and I'm so thankful that the large numbers of derelicts there were cleaned up. That costs money, and money is in short supply. And what do I do, really, to actually support that side of things? So I would support a fee (like an annual license) for non-FL residents to anchor in FL, say a little sticker as proof. This money would go to things directly related to recreational boating and specifically anchorages. Not just removing derelicts, but opening up shoals that hamper boaters, adding municipal docks to attract cruisers to shop locally, increased pump outs, etc.

I want FL to be available for me to enjoy on my boat, anchoring. I'll spend some money to help that happen, IF the rules aren't so constraining that I can't feel free.
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Old 23-08-2014, 06:24   #190
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

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Originally Posted by ElGatoGordo View Post
I want FL to be available for me to enjoy on my boat, anchoring. I'll spend some money to help that happen, IF the rules aren't so constraining that I can't feel free. [/FONT]

My sentiments exactly.
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Old 23-08-2014, 07:03   #191
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

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Originally Posted by ElGatoGordo View Post
I want FL to be available for me to enjoy on my boat, anchoring. I'll spend some money to help that happen, IF the rules aren't so constraining that I can't feel free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKsailsolo View Post
My sentiments exactly.
Agree!

Hence paying for a mooring ball in the popular anchorages is not a problem, IMO.

The pilot program has encouraged mooring fields in exchange for local control. Some munis are complaining that price is too high. But when the onion is peeled back, the issue isn't the derelict vessels, it's the elitists that simply don't want anyone to use the water within the view of their high-dollar home.

This isn't a FL resident vs. non-resident issue. Yes, local NIMBYs are trying to weave that into the conversation, but non-residents of FL can still offer their opinion, fill out the SSCA survey, contact the FWC with your comments.
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Old 23-08-2014, 23:19   #192
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Bella,
I was gone for considerable time doing the Army thing, but I live within throwing distance of Fl now, and keep my boat in Fl and will retire there. I was a Fl resident for 30 yrs before, so yes I know Fl. If you think I come off as disrespecting Floridians, well for most of my adult life, I was one, will be one again soon. I am a Jim Bob type, if you were from the Old Southeast, you'd understand. We talk slow and funny, but we aren't stupid, I do poke fun at us though, most of us do. How long have you lived in Fl?
Most of my life..meaning my family moved to Gainesville when I was ten so my dad could work at UF as a dept head.. summers were whatever embassy he was stationed at. I graduated HS in 1966..
Old Southeast is a neighborhood in St. Petersburg.. I grew up in North Fla... at a time when the biggest thing going was gator growl. I still hunt in the fall up near Callahan.
I am a. I dunno.. maybe 14 or 15 generation southerner.

I was born into an Army AF family, married soldiers thrice.. my son is currently posted with 3rd SF group and his wife is 2nd lt with 82nd Airborne.. both posted at Bragg. Thanks for doing what you do, that keeps me safe and free.

Quote:
Ever built a trailer or an airplane for that matter? Then you know a number is assigned to that trailer when you register it, they give you a data plate that you attach to the trailer. They do this so they can find owners of stolen or abandoned trailers. Why would it be hard to assign a data plate to a boat? Whats wrong with requiring vintage boats or homebuilts to be identifiable? An issue with derelicts is determining who owns and is responsible. While nothing is 100% if you can determine who owns a vessel that is at least part of the battle.
NO boat built prior to 1978 has an HIN number. They do have a title number. You can bitch all you want about what you thnk they should have..it is what it is. I can garuntee you its not about to change and if it does it is more dinero out of every boaters pocket. Florida is a use state..

What you don't get is that pretty much most abadoned or even derelict boats have thier hin or id numbers cut off.. dumpers are not stupid. They are well aware that florida has a law that charges and fines them for both dumping and removal. Further boats that end up being nonmoving liveaboards get sold and resold and rarely reregistered which makes finding the actually owner almost impossible.

I did a whole photography show on derelict and abandoned boats in and around St. Petersburg. I noticed and the local country cops told me that pretty much everyboat has the hin numbers sawalled off.. normally they would be on the back upper corner.

Quote:
Your Fl is different, vastly different than North Fl., Panhandle and North Fl hasn't changed as much as South Fl has. This problem simply doesn't exist here and I don't want it here either, things like this have a tendency to spread.
Sigh... baloney.. I grew up in North Florida and was living in South Dade in the early 1970s... the rural areas are still pretty much the same as they were back then. Miami has moved north trust me.. I grew up hunting, fishing and boating IN and around North Florida.. Crescent beach was the normal beach growing up. Go inland 20 miles anywhere IN Florida and you will find the country.. We produce more cattle than any other state in the nation. the 7L is the oldest continously in use cattle brand in the nation. The biggest ranch IN florida is called Desiree, its owned by the LDS church btw.. . Sorry if you assumed I was a northern bred city girl.. hardly.. My mom lives in Crystal River, son in Homossassa, Dtr in Weeki Wachee. I live in that general area.. part of the year.. other part I live further west across the Gulf.

the derelict problem does exist in north florida.. take a look at st augie, several boats have been in prime spots and not moved for years. It was a huge bone of contention with cruisers passing by. You may not see them but problem boats are everywhere.. in Georgia too.. I recall a whole thread on boats in New Bern that anchored and never moved..

Quote:
Rightly or wrongly, I still maintain this is not a Florida issue, it's Federal, but apparently that has been given up long ago, and while that may be tilting at windmills, I still wouldn't give up on that.
yep you are..talking out your fourth point of contact.
"those rights not specifically reserved for the federal government belong to the states." The federal government has no right to control water in florida..they would be stomping on states rights.. what you fail to understand is that florida has a LOT more water than coastline water.. otoh, the Army Corp of Engineers totally F.\ubar'd the Kissimmee River and turned it into the Kissimmee Canal. Then your tax dollars had to fix the fubar the Corps created. It nearly destroyed Lake Ochochobee.

[quote]
The next step is it will be a County or Municipality issue, then it will be anyone's guess what the anchoring rules will be for a given area, The guy with the big trawler that sued and won and got the anchor laws repealed, you talk as if what he did was a bad thing, where I would say it was a good thing. [quote]

OH please.. what you simply did not catch on the cliff notes version.. was real simple.. UNTIL trawler guy challenged the marco island ruling it was a mishmash of city to city ordinances.. many of them were onerous and ridiculous.. what the law that created the pilot program did was to stop that.. and create ONE law for the entire state.. except where the 5 pilot programs are.. Marathon, Stuart, St. Augustine, St Petersburg.. Miami? I know key west is nother part of the program. The State worked with boaters, boating organizations, and cities to get this right. The FWC took 90 days of comments. Of which there were thousands and actually read them. AS you said you have been gone for 30 yrs.. times changed and right now its for the better.. I will never want to go back to pre2004 crap. I never knew where I stood or how long I could stay, if even overnight.. and the local water cops could bs their way.. now they cannot now the laws are uniform.

Quote:
Your right about one thing though, I have not done my due diligence, I was gone playing Army for a long time, now that I have returned, I don't like what has been done with my Florida.
shrug.. thanks for your service..but really... 30 yrs is a long damn time down here.. might want to take a drive down by the redneck riviera and see the high rises.. and so telling your 1st Sargent or CSM that you did not do your due diligence was acceptable.. drop down and give me 20.

BTW.. Port Charlotte, I think it is.. is great and welcoming to cruisers.. free city docks as well.. Of the entire state.. I think the best sailing grounds are SW fla in the winter.. and in april we have the regatta del sol al sol.. never know what will happen on that trip..
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Old 23-08-2014, 23:36   #193
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

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Originally Posted by ElGatoGordo View Post

I love FL. I love the clean water, the relatively deep water (compared to TX) and the variety. And when I go there I spend money. This gives me a say. I can't vote per se, but I can choose to spend my money elsewhere. To those that say "It's a FL issue" you're simply wrong. FL spends MILLIONS to attract tourists, it's a huge part of their income as a state.
There was this whole brewha in 2005 I think it was with Miami Beach and anchoring.. on the charts, so you can get an idea.. look up watson island its near Government Cut and just to the east.. anchorage there, and to the east south side of Venetian Isles by miami beach.. so Miami beach was trying to do this huge onerous anchoring ordinance. one of the first things they were told that the boating income to the Dade/BRoward was about $2,000,000/mnth which they stood to lose IF this were passed. It barely failed but fail it did..

The constant threats to anchoring. The constant city to city ordinances that only god could keep up with. Were done away with with one swipe of a judges gavel when the marco island anchoring law was tossed out. Once the FWC set in place the pilot mooring field program, and the state wide rules life got so much better.. I never want to go backwards..

Quote:
So here's my thing. I'm a panhandle guy. I love the little treed anchorages and sandy islands. I have been going to the area around Pirates Cove for years and I'm so thankful that the large numbers of derelicts there were cleaned up. That costs money, and money is in short supply. And what do I do, really, to actually support that side of things? So I would support a fee (like an annual license) for non-FL residents to anchor in FL, say a little sticker as proof. This money would go to things directly related to recreational boating and specifically anchorages. Not just removing derelicts, but opening up shoals that hamper boaters, adding municipal docks to attract cruisers to shop locally, increased pump outs, etc.
oh please don't give the legislature any ideas.. we are a use state. If they can put a fee on it they will in Tallahassee.. lots of fees changed in oct 2009 and they all jumped sky high. Next thing ya know they will charge me for farting.. I swear.. hush.. shhhhhhhhhhhh no really..

if I recall right.. a lot of those funds for cleaing up derelicts come out of a fund we have that boaters already fund with their registration fees. Plus some federal funding from the Army Corps of Engineers.
Sadly the shoaling problems are only going to get worse.. Esp on the AICW.. the GICW might be in better luck with its heavy barge traffic.. funding to maintain comes from Congress who has been less and less inclined to give funds for maintenence dredging. I know boaters who will get together on out of the way anchorages and use thier dingy engines to clear a channel in and keep it cleared and marked with private channel markers.. its a local thing. ya know..


Quote:
I want FL to be available for me to enjoy on my boat, anchoring. I'll spend some money to help that happen, IF the rules aren't so constraining that I can't feel free.
Rules what roolz.. we don't need no stinkin roolz.. seriously a lot of us intend for our state to remain a boating haven. WE fight the carpetbaggers oops I mean the current governor and his buddies all the time and with luck we will prevail.

Sometime make that jump from port st joe to st pete.. and then spend some time gunkholing down the SW coast.. lots of nice anchorages..
Oh and please don't hesitate to leave all that cash behind, I understand we even have stores that take credit cards..and understand Texican.
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Old 23-08-2014, 23:50   #194
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

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The gist of your history is right, but your facts are a little off.

It was 2007, not 2003 or 4
It was Marco Island, not Naples Island (is that even a real place?)
It was Smokehouse Bay, not Factory Bay
It was a 25 year-old Kadey Krogen trawler, not a high dollar trawler
The lawyer did the work pro-bono

But, yes, the local ordinance was intentionally challenged and the city lost the case. That got the attention of (then) FWC legal counsel Richard Allen who (re)wrote the state law in order to emphasize the definition of liveaboard, which is the basic distinction between what can be covered under 'local control', as vessel in navigation (or capable of) is not under 'local control'.

I also agree that the pilot program is good for boaters, regardless of those that disagree with giving any amount of control of the water to local municipalities. The pilot program is basically giving locals a chance to have some control but must give something to boaters in order to get that control. The span of control is negotiated with the FWC and so far has yielded reasonable results (again, IMO).

I'm for making the pilot program the way of the future.
thanks. I knew someone would chime in and correct me. I knew my dates were off and for the life of me I could not remember Marco.. thanks so much. .So am I about the Pilot Program. It has worked well.. esp in Marathon.
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Old 23-08-2014, 23:58   #195
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Re: Florida Boaters Unite: defeat HB 955 and SB 1126

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Agree!

Hence paying for a mooring ball in the popular anchorages is not a problem, IMO.

The pilot program has encouraged mooring fields in exchange for local control. Some munis are complaining that price is too high. But when the onion is peeled back, the issue isn't the derelict vessels, it's the elitists that simply don't want anyone to use the water within the view of their high-dollar home.

This isn't a FL resident vs. non-resident issue. Yes, local NIMBYs are trying to weave that into the conversation, but non-residents of FL can still offer their opinion, fill out the SSCA survey, contact the FWC with your comments.

and its the lowest end of the stick. or the "I got rights" group that is also a huge problem. many in both those groups do things that create problems for the rest of those who are responsible boaters.

Kady Krogens of any age are not cheap boats btw.. and thanks again for correcting me.. it was real late and I was trying my best to remember it all. I do remember laughing at reading about how the ordinance was 72 hrs, wasnit it? and the cops came and asked him to move repeatedly and he kept asking for his ticket.. I thought sure it was factory bay.. and yes there is NO naples island its marco.. duh...

Survey taken btw... Is the FWC got comments open again for this latest round? anyone know?

BTW Asomething Pilot.. HE is a SHE,
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