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Old 03-10-2015, 15:25   #46
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
An offence? Since when was it an offence for Australian to own foreign property?
I would query the wording of that bit of the regs.
There is no offence in owning foreign property. The shipping act only applies if the property is a vessel AND departs a port for a forgein port. IIRC, there is some exception if the departing port doesn't have the bureaucracy to obtain a registration or somesuch.

More simply, if traveling in international waters; although the act does not use the term "international waters" pe sec. The words "departing a port for a foreign port" implies such which leads to an unusal situation for an Aussie departing for a nonstop RTW vogage. IMO, the spirit of the act would suggest it applies but the wording doesn't . I reckon the bureaucrats and legal beagles didn't think of such things...

Factor has it correct
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Old 03-10-2015, 15:43   #47
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
There is no offence in owning foreign property. The shipping act only applies if the property is a vessel AND departs a port for a forgein port. IIRC, there is some exception if the departing port doesn't have the bureaucracy to obtain a registration or somesuch.

More simply, if traveling in international waters; although the act does not use the term "international waters" pe sec. The words "departing a port for a foreign port" implies such which leads to an unusal situation for an Aussie departing for a nonstop RTW vogage. IMO, the spirit of the act would suggest it applies but the wording doesn't . I reckon the bureaucrats and legal beagles didn't think of such things...

Factor has it correct
Can you spell out a little bit more 'what' your claiming Factor has correct?

What exactly is it that is unlawful?
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Old 03-10-2015, 15:56   #48
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Can you spell out a little bit more 'what' your claiming Factor has correct?

What exactly is it that is unlawful?
This one (and especially the the bit I have emphasised )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
I take it your vessel is Australian Owned within the meaning of the Shipping Registration Act 1981. (Commonwealth Law) - If so you commit an offence under Section 69 if you leave a foreign port (in most cases) - not that anyone is going to care while you stay out of Australia, but be aware of this if you ever intend to return.
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Old 03-10-2015, 16:18   #49
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
This one (and especially the the bit I have emphasised )
Ok, If the suggestion is that a Sail Boat can't leave another Port, from overseas without first registering, then that's not correct. It's about ships 'entitled' to be registered.

Entitled refers to either a ship that is required to be registered; or a ship that is permitted to be registered.

In the case of 'all' sail boats, none are 'required'. It does refer to a sail boat that is 'permitted to be registered', but that clearly refers to vessels to which are already listed.

So, regarding the OP, no, they are not committing an offence by registering elsewhere. Not unless they have applied and been granted listing, but then chose to ignore it and go elsewhere. In other words, just because they are Australian and own a boat does not require them to register it. Thus, no offence committed.


Oh, and Section 68 does specifically apply which is about leaving Australian ports.


In short, An Australian who purchases a vessel for pleasure that is under 24 meters can choose not to register with Australia without fear, as long as they don't then want to sail it for Australian waters.
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Old 03-10-2015, 16:29   #50
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Just get the Australian registration. They are very helpful and only took 2 weeks to process our last one. After 3 Aussie registered boats we know how well we are received internationally when flying the flag.
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Old 03-10-2015, 18:06   #51
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Here is the law

Quote:
SHIPPING REGISTRATION ACT 1981 - SECT 69

Unregistered ships not to leave foreign ports
(1) Where an unregistered ship is at a foreign port at which there is a proper officer, the ship shall not depart from that port on a voyage unless and until a registration certificate or provisional registration certificate is granted in respect of the ship.

(2) The master and owner of a ship that departs from a foreign port in contravention of subsection (1) are each guilty of an offence punishable upon conviction:

(a) if the offender is a natural person--by a fine not exceeding $2,000; or

(b) if the offender is a body corporate--by a fine not exceeding $5,000.

(2A) An offence under subsection (2) is an offence of strict liability.

Note: For strict liability , see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a prescribed ship, or ships included in a prescribed class of ships.
An UNREGISTERED SHIP is the key here:

and the act defines UNREGISTERED SHIP as

Quote:
"unregistered ship" means a ship entitled to be registered that is not registered.
ship entitled to be registered is defined as:

Quote:
"ship entitled to be registered" means:

(a) a ship that is required to be registered; or

(b) a ship that is permitted to be registered.

oh and proper officer means:

Quote:
"proper officer" means a person holding, or performing the duties of, any of the following offices (being an office of the Commonwealth) in a country or place outside Australia, namely:

(a) Ambassador;

(b) Minister;

(c) Head of a Mission;

(d) Chargé d'Affaires;

(e) Counsellor, Secretary or Attaché of an Embassy, Legation or other post;

(f) Consul-General;

(g) Consul; or

(h) Vice-Consul.
SO: the law is that if you have a ship ENTITLED (not required) to be registered and you leave from a foreign port where there is an australian government presence of the sort described above, the YES you commit the offence described under section 69.

Sorry Rustic Charm, but thats the law.
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Old 03-10-2015, 18:09   #52
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
There is no offence in owning foreign property. The shipping act only applies if the property is a vessel AND departs a port for a forgein port. IIRC, there is some exception if the departing port doesn't have the bureaucracy to obtain a registration or somesuch.

More simply, if traveling in international waters; although the act does not use the term "international waters" pe sec. The words "departing a port for a foreign port" implies such which leads to an unusal situation for an Aussie departing for a nonstop RTW vogage. IMO, the spirit of the act would suggest it applies but the wording doesn't . I reckon the bureaucrats and legal beagles didn't think of such things...

Factor has it correct
The first unspecified "port" refers to an Australian port. It is an offence for an Australian citizen/resident to leave Australia with the intent to land in another country unless his vessel is registered in Australia or another country.

I ran into this a couple of months ago, leaving Cairns on a boat owned by an Australian. The boat is PNG based. It was built in Europe, Sailed to Thailand and then to PNG by various owners. The current owner bought it in PNG. The boat had never been to Australia previously.

He had a letter from the PNG Registrar of Shipping stating:

a. the vessel is PNG resident
b. the class of vessel is not required to be registered under PNG
legislation.
c. Permission was granted fot the vessel to depart Port Moresby for Cairns and return.

Nothing was raised about the ownership/registration when the boat arrived in Australia and the boat was "entered" as a temporary import for maintenance. Leaving was a different story.

It took us all day to get approval to depart including several phone calls to the Border Farce legal eagles in Canberra. When they eventually release the vessel, the owner was warned that he would be charged if he brought the vessel to Australia again unless it was officially registered somewhere.

(Note, they did not insist that it be registered in Australia)
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Old 03-10-2015, 18:15   #53
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Here is the law



An UNREGISTERED SHIP is the key here:

and the act defines UNREGISTERED SHIP as



ship entitled to be registered is defined as:



un registered means:

oh and proper officer means:



SO: the law is that if you have a ship ENTITLED (not required) to be registered and you leave from a foreign port where there is an australian government presence of the sort described above, the YES you commit the offence described under section 69.

Sorry Rustic Charm, but thats the law.
However, it says an "unregistered ship", not a "ship that is not registered in Australia". So, as per my previous post, as long as it is registered in some country, you are not breaking this section.
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Old 03-10-2015, 18:19   #54
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Sorry mate, still incorrect - Unregistered ship is
Quote:
unregistered ship means a ship entitled to be registered that is not registered.
Registered means
Quote:
Registered means registered under this Act in:
(a) the General Register; or
(b) the International Register.

But its up to the OP, like I said the Australian authorities will be flat out finding their posterior with either hand on this issue, but the OPS insurance company might be more thorough
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Old 03-10-2015, 18:58   #55
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Sorry mate, still incorrect - Unregistered ship is
Registered means


But its up to the OP, like I said the Australian authorities will be flat out finding their posterior with either hand on this issue, but the OPS insurance company might be more thorough
But this may be relevant:"17 No multiple registrations
(1) The Registrar must not:
(a) register a ship in the General Register if it is registered:
(i) in the International Register; or
(ii) under a law of a foreign country;"
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Old 03-10-2015, 19:05   #56
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

And that still doesn't obviate the responsibilities of the OP, all it means is that he must cease the foreign registration prior to doing what the Shipping Registration Act requires, and that is registering the ship under the said Act.
Oh - and Border Force does not have carriage of the administration of the Act, AMSA does.

But again like I said, my only real concern is for the impact of the OPs insurance
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Old 03-10-2015, 20:42   #57
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Here is the law

An UNREGISTERED SHIP is the key here:

and the act defines UNREGISTERED SHIP as

ship entitled to be registered is defined as:

SO: the law is that if you have a ship ENTITLED (not required) to be registered and you leave from a foreign port where there is an australian government presence of the sort described above, the YES you commit the offence described under section 69.

Sorry Rustic Charm, but thats the law.
No need to apologise Factor. This is CF where we all have our armchair opinions and no one's opinion matters diddly squat in the end. It's just discussion

What I always find with 'bush lawyers' is that they always only follow through a part of the legislation. In your case you didn't follow through on your definitions and define 'a ship permitted to be registered' and what that means. You were absolutely right up until then, though who an 'Officer' was not part of the discussion so I've discarded that. And the definition so stated of 'a ship permitted to be registered' is as follows;

ship permitted to be registered means a ship permitted to be registered by virtue of section 14 or 15B.

So, we have to amble on through to section 14 and 15B to see who is 'permitted' to be registered.

14 Ships that may be registered in the General Register
The following ships may be registered in the General Register:
(a) Australian‑owned ships;
(b) small craft that are wholly owned by Australian residents, or by Australian residents and Australian nationals;
(c) small craft that are operated solely by Australian residents, or by Australian nationals, or by both;
(d) ships that are on demise charter to Australian‑based operators.

Please note I've highlighted 'MAY' and there's this little Act called the 'Act of Interpretation' which pretty much say's 'may' means you have a choice. I can't be bothered looking it up. But that's what it means. It means you don't have to.

And the other section is section

15B Ships that may be registered in the International Register
The following ships may be registered in the International Register if they are at least 24 metres in tonnage length:
(a) trading ships that are Australian‑owned ships;
(b) trading ships that are wholly owned by Australian residents, or by Australian residents and Australian nationals;
(c) trading ships that are operated solely by Australian residents, or by Australian nationals, or by both;
(d) trading ships that are on demise charter to Australian‑based operators.

Now you can see this section relates to both 'trading' ships and also ships greater than 24 meters.

So, when you consider the entire legislation, then NO, an Australian person who purchases a boat overseas is not acting illegally by leaving a foreign port by virtue that they have not registered their vessel.
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Old 03-10-2015, 21:05   #58
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

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And that still doesn't obviate the responsibilities of the OP, all it means is that he must cease the foreign registration prior to doing what the Shipping Registration Act requires, and that is registering the ship under the said Act.
Oh - and Border Force does not have carriage of the administration of the Act, AMSA does.

But again like I said, my only real concern is for the impact of the OPs insurance
Whilst you are correct AMSA administer the act, I think you will find its Border Force (e.g customs) that also administer or police (lack of another loose term) the act. Happy to be corrected if this is not the case anymore.
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Old 03-10-2015, 21:56   #59
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Whilst you are correct AMSA administer the act, I think you will find its Border Force (e.g customs) that also administer or police (lack of another loose term) the act. Happy to be corrected if this is not the case anymore.
Yep, it's Border Force who clear the vessel and issue the necessary clearance document. At least it was 2 months ago when I did it last.
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Old 03-10-2015, 22:03   #60
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Re: Flag: USA or AUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
And that still doesn't obviate the responsibilities of the OP, all it means is that he must cease the foreign registration prior to doing what the Shipping Registration Act requires, and that is registering the ship under the said Act.
Oh - and Border Force does not have carriage of the administration of the Act, AMSA does.

But again like I said, my only real concern is for the impact of the OPs insurance
And if the OP remains resident in another country which has similar requirements for its residents to registering a vessel in the country of residence (he is a UK passport holder as well), which legislation do you recommend he breaks, since he can't comply with both.

Just as a FYI, PNG is currently enacting similar legislation for Small Ships Registration which, it appears, will require an Australian who is resident in PNG to register the vessel here so it's not a moot point by any means.
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