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Old 14-02-2014, 06:20   #46
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Re: Flag of Convenience

Thanks guys

Dave, as I understand things, I can buy a boat from outside the EU and flag it on the SSR pt2 without formality (no proof of ownership required or implied) and I can bring it to the EU for a period of 6mths to undertake repairs/refit. I must then take it to a non-EU country. I am then allowed to bring it back in for repairs again, do you know how long that period outside needs to be before returning ?
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Old 14-02-2014, 06:21   #47
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Re: Flag of Convenience

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Then there's the issue of where the boat was built. If built in the US, you can always get and re-new the federal cruising permit which exempts you from state duties, taxes and whatever they like to attack people with.
If the boat is not built in the US, you can get the cruising permit for the first 12 months only, then need to leave the US for a while (don't know how long) before returning and getting a new cruising permit.
"Built in the US" can mean "built in China and finished in the US" which is what some manufacturers do in order to fall into this legal status.
The above is incorrect. Only resident aliens can receive successive cruising permits without the boat leaving the US for 15 days. And then only if the boat is US built or import duty has been paid on the boat if not US built. A lot of confusing info is on this and other forums regarding cruising in US and buying a boat in US. Serious buyers should discuss the matter with a broker from a large boat brokerage and/or an attorney. It is not unusual to get incorrect information from local customs personnel. Few have experience with recreational boats.

Following from https://help.cbp.gov.

Resident aliens may apply for successive cruising licenses if their foreign-flag vessel was made in the U.S. or if duty has been paid on its importation provided that the vessel is documented under the laws of one of the countries listed in 19 CFR 4.94(b). Under CBP policy, non-U.S. residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses. A new license will not be issued unless the following two conditions have been met: (1) at least 15 days have elapsed since the previous license either expired or was surrendered, and (2) the vessel arrives in the U.S. from a foreign port or place. (Customs Directive 3130-006A) CBP will want to see foreign clearance paperwork as evidence that you are arriving from a foreign location.
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Old 14-02-2014, 06:44   #48
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Re: Flag of Convenience

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Thanks Skipmac
Do you perhaps have a link to that USCG website ?
I'd certainly be interested in trying to find the section that covers recreational vessels.
Here is a link to one of the USCG pages, FAQs for documentation. From this page there are links to pages with complete regulations and a contact for someone at the USCG to answer any other questions.

USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Fee Page
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Old 14-02-2014, 06:49   #49
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Re: Flag of Convenience

Thanks Skipmac and all you guys actually.
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Old 14-02-2014, 07:05   #50
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Re: Flag of Convenience

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Thanks Skipmac and all you guys actually.
By the way, there is one more mine in this field that I saw mentioned briefly but needs a little further mention, US sales tax on boats. Sales tax or sales and use tax is in practice like an EU VAT tax but charged by individual states and not national. It is based on the value of the item purchased and is typically 6% but can vary +/- 1% from state to state and in some states there is a maximum cap on the tax.

Since the sales tax is set by each state then the rules vary and can be a bit confusing. In general whether or not you will have to pay that tax will depend on a combination of the state where you buy the boat and how long you keep the boat in that state. Florida is fairly typical in this. If you buy a boat in Florida they don't care if you are a Florida resident or if you register the boat in Florida, USCG document the vessel or have a Florida mailing address. Once you purchase the boat you have 90 days to leave the state or be liable for the 6% sales tax. If the boat is in a yard for repairs you can get an extension on the 90 days. Since it seldom comes up I'm not sure about how this would apply to a non US citizen but if the boat is owned by a Delaware corporation you will be liable.
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Old 14-02-2014, 07:59   #51
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Re: Flag of Convenience

Florida caps the 6% tax at a $300K purchase so the most sales tax you will pay is $18,000. If the OP is planning on buying that million dollar boat then he might as well do it in Fla because that last $700,000 is tax free.
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Old 14-02-2014, 10:01   #52
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Re: Flag of Convenience

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Wish it was that easy: the previous owner needs to de-register it and get the document that declares and proves this. The new owner needs that document in order to be able to register it elsewhere.
This was not required for my purchase.

As the new owner I was able to delete the boat from the USCGS registry, acquire the document and then register the boat in Australia.

I cannot remember the documentation needed but I do know the previous owner was not involved in the process.
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Old 14-02-2014, 10:07   #53
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Re: Flag of Convenience

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Florida caps the 6% tax at a $300K purchase so the most sales tax you will pay is $18,000. If the OP is planning on buying that million dollar boat then he might as well do it in Fla because that last $700,000 is tax free.
In Minnesota there is no sales tax on used boats. Our sales transaction was completed in Minnesota and we have not yet paid sales tax. We do expect to pay GST and duty when we import the boat into Australia.
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Old 14-02-2014, 10:28   #54
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Re: Flag of Convenience

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The above is incorrect. Only resident aliens can receive successive cruising permits without the boat leaving the US for 15 days. And then only if the boat is US built or import duty has been paid on the boat if not US built.
Seems correct. The text has been updated and the resident alien condition has been added. When we dealt with this the text was very old fashioned with wording like "boat laid-up in the US" instead of "manufactured in the US" etc.

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Old 14-02-2014, 15:05   #55
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Re: Flag of Convenience

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Originally Posted by shanedennis View Post
In Minnesota there is no sales tax on used boats. Our sales transaction was completed in Minnesota and we have not yet paid sales tax.

Also no sales tax on used boats in Rhode Island. As far as I can find out, it's the only state on the east coast without sales tax.
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Old 14-02-2014, 15:13   #56
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Re: Flag of Convenience

DOJ-
"Plus I beleive a non US reg boat will need a cruising permit - valid for 3? / 6? Months."
In US usage, we never refer to a "US registered" boat. We refer to "state registered" or "federally documented" and both phrases are intentional redundancies with the assumption that "registered" therefore always means state motor vehicle (or less often, boat) registration.

So, a state registered boat here, owned by a foreigner, can come and go as they please without any federal controls, other than meeting USCG safety standards like everyone else.

A foreign flagged vessel--one that that documentation or title from any national entity--is required to obtain a Cruising Permit, which is valid for 12 months and may or may not be extended after that (and only after being removed from US waters for 12? 15? days) is subject to a whole extra bureaucracy, and apparently must notify the fed every time the boat moves, even from one side of a slip to the other.

Much easier to simply have a state registered boat, if it is not going outside US waters. I don't know about Delaware but apparently Rhode Island will be glad to register the boat without a residence, as long as it follows state registration rules. Which typically require a vessel to be registered in any state where it tarries longer than 90 days in one year. (Times and periods vary from state to state.)

How complicated it will get, depends on what the OP wants to do with the boat.
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Old 15-02-2014, 17:04   #57
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Re: Flag of Convenience

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Originally Posted by Captain Ludd View Post
Thanks guys

Dave, as I understand things, I can buy a boat from outside the EU and flag it on the SSR pt2 without formality (no proof of ownership required or implied) and I can bring it to the EU for a period of 6mths to undertake repairs/refit. I must then take it to a non-EU country. I am then allowed to bring it back in for repairs again, do you know how long that period outside needs to be before returning ?
If you are are a EU tax resident , there is no escaping vat. Vat is due immediately on import into the EU. The reliefs you mention are not available to leisure boat owners.

Dave
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Old 15-02-2014, 17:32   #58
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Re: Flag of Convenience

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If you are are a EU tax resident , there is no escaping vat. Vat is due immediately on import into the EU. The reliefs you mention are not available to leisure boat owners.

Dave
Thanks but that is not correct, I have spoken to customs & excise about this at great length now.
Check 5.6.
If the intention is for an EU citizen to bring the (say US flagged) boat in for repairs and then take it out again, it can come in for 6 mths before it will have to leave (unless there is mitigation).

HM Revenue & Customs

The thing I didn't want to ask was how long before it can come back in.
I believe it is immediately if I can prove I left EU waters.
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Old 15-02-2014, 17:49   #59
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Flag of Convenience

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Originally Posted by Captain Ludd View Post
Thanks but that is not correct, I have spoken to customs & excise about this at great length now.
Check 5.6.
If the intention is for an EU citizen to bring the (say US flagged) boat in for repairs and then take it out again, it can come in for 6 mths before it will have to leave (unless there is mitigation).

HM Revenue & Customs

The thing I didn't want to ask was how long before it can come back in.
I believe it is immediately if I can prove I left EU waters.
You are mis-informed and misreading section 5.6 , which refers to section 5.3 and 5.4 which relate to boats owned by non EU residents, who have instructed a local tax resident to effect repairs. Ie a EU mechanic can work on a boat and use it ( say for testing) without requiring to import it. However the owner must be a non EU tax resident

There is no provision in EU vat law to allow a EU tax resident ( who is the beneficial owner) to import a leisure boat for 6 months to effect repairs. If that were so , every boat in Europe would be effecting repairs . Note that vat law does not make any allowances for the flag of the boat.


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Old 15-02-2014, 17:53   #60
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Re: Flag of Convenience

If you think I'm reading it incorrectly then you need to speak to customs because they are clear.
HM Revenue & Customs

Really Dave you are wrong, check IP 1.4 that says

"1.4 How IP works
You may only use IP suspension with a simplified authorisation and:

there must be an intention to re-export suspension goods from the EU,
goods must be processed within six months of the date of entry,
and the goods are processed and re-exported from the UK; and
records are kept for all operations carried out."
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