Flag Etiquette Question

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Back to the important stuff, stow your flags and belay those halyards...

OK Dave, are you a creating new myth here on CF (perhaps even intentionally )????

I also am a BS drinker (in the gin sense of the acronym) and I have dabbled with Hendricks - very nice I must add - but what is the Henderson's stuff you speak of.

Wars have been fought over less matters so I challenge you to a Henderson / Hendrick duel; my second will call you second.

SWL, I now apologise for your knuckles; would you please consent to be my second should Dave be gentleman enough to accept the challenge...

After a little salve and a good night's sleep my knuckles have recovered now, so I'm ready and able to take on the role of second when it comes to alcohol or sport. The first role of a second is, however, to try and smooth the waters, so firstly let me see what I can negotiate.

Edited to add: I see the dispute has now been settled. Saves me continuing to hunt for this mysterious bottle Dave has been mentioning .

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Why bother, we have our own queen, its just that she prefers to live in pommieland along with Greer, Pilger, Harris ( he is a guest of the Queen for the next 5 years or so...how cool is that), and others.

The notion of using the UK as our penal colony does complete the circle nicely doesn't it?

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Flags...
One reason that a lot of the waffle re what oz flag to fly dates back to the early 1980s is that prior to 1981 there was no such thing as an 'Australian ship' .. they were all just 'British ships registered in Australia' and they didn't fly an Australian Red Ensign but a defaced british red ensign. That was the year ( give or take ) that Oz got its own register, there were then 'Australian' ships and they started flying the Australian Red Ensign ( same flag but there you go...its all in the detail).

In my reading, I found several Aussie yacht clubs have a warrant to use the Blue Ensign or a defaced one. I've never yet seen this flown from a yacht and most of these clubs don't even 'fess up to this on their websites.

Challenge issued to any CF members in OZ to see if they can snap a shot of this on a boat (at the same time please check to see they are flying the burgee in the correct spot ).
It shows how much customs vary if this is commonly see on UK boats in the UK and the Med, but rarely (almost never?) seen on Aussie boats in Australia.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

This leaves me in somewhat of a quandary. I have always flown the Oz Red Ensign 'cause it seemed better than doing what the landlubbers do but I can also identify with the rabid ship masters so perhaps I should be flying the ANF.

When in such doubt, I resort to seeking advice and raise the question - WWSWLD. For the less educated, that is "What Would Sea Worthy Lass Do".

True Blue here, so no doubts about my selection .
(A major consideration is also that it is too easily mistaken for a Red Duster. Given the absence of a burgee flying, it could never be mistaken for a Blue Ensign).

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I think most Aussie's would say never at heart. We are just too laid back to bother fussing with completely severing ties .

And the biggest stumbling block is that no one has come up with a better flag alternative yet. Is there anyone that doesn't shudder looking at some of the 'green and gold' options that have been put forward?

Problem solved

[hoppy]

Is this correct flag etiquette?





Reading this thread helps me understand why yachting has an elitist reputation with the under-classes

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

FWIW: Over the years, I have had as guests on board two admirals (one Aussie, one USN (and a three star at that)), and an Kiwi Captain and Naval Attache to Oz.

None of them seemed to give a **** about flags on a yacht. All they wanted was to drive the boat and to have a cold drink in their hands. I'm sure that on their own vessels things were different, but on a pleasure craft flag etiquette was not a high priority to them... or to me, beyond the basic ensign and courtesy flag when in foreign waters.

Now, a technical question: How do you "dip" your ensign for a warship when the bloody thing is either sewn to the leech of the mainsail or flying from a staff (sans halyards) at the stern? I've occasionally been tempted to do this act of respect, but couldn't work out how... and have wondered how anyone on the massive warship could possibly see my action if I did do it?

Jim

Jim,

I was taught that the correct way to do this is to take the flagstaff from its mount, raise it so the staff is at 90 degrees to ground (sea) level then dip it until the staff is parallel to the water (the flag now being at 90 degrees to the water)

The staff is then raised again to the perpendicular postion and reset in its mount.

I'm absolutely sure someone will have another method - but that is what I was taught.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Jaxxiam

Do we use the rectangular flag with the notch or the one without the notch, they both look rectangular to me. Unless it is an effect of my pixel count.

ONly the Royal family or the armed forces are allowed to fly the split flag (the one with the notch). Danish leisure boats have royal permission to fly the notched flag so long as it is adorned with the letters YF(yacht flag - same words in Danish) in the uppermost left hand corner.

Visiting boats must fly the unnotched flag as the courtesy flag.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Regardless, it still does not address the first matter under dispute though, where this flag should be flown. You have agreed "the only ensign flown at the starboard spreader can be that of the country being visited". If you hoist the national flag of someone for example from the US or France where the national flag and ensign are identical, you are in fact hoisting their ensign there.

This statement you made is totally contradictory to Danish protocol of not flying any ensign on the starboard spreader, except that of a host country:



So no sir, you have not yet addressed this matter in a satisfactory way.




Carsten, you initially simply stated your courtesy flag of choice for the UK would be the Union Flag. No mention that either that OR the ensign could be used. Now you are saying it can be either?

I accept though your retreat though and leave you with your sword, so that we can focus on the first matter .

Gosh, you leave this thread to sleep and come to 4 pages including major thread drift - now that we are discussing gin (another interesting discussion)

I'll take a last stab at it. Teddy noted it in his post.

The Danish protocol notes that you fly your honored guest national flag at the starboard spreader when in home waters (naturally, if the national flag is both the national flag and the ensign, you have no choice in the matter)

The Honor flag (which is not a house flag as Dave contends, but an honor flag) retires to the port spreader when the starboard spreader is needed for something else - for example the "Q" flag or a courtesy flag (to be flown when entering foreign territorial waters).

I'm perfectly happy to admit my understanding of which courtesy flag I must use in the UK comes from looking at the Weilbach website. I'd simply buy whatever they said was the appropriate flag (as I would with any other country) since there seem to be a multitude of UK flags to choose from.

I'm not an expert on UK flags.

Have we, during this discussion reached agreement on which ensign( is the correct courtesy flag for entering UK port (including places like Gilbraltar and other territories)?

By the way (to adress the current topic) I have some Hendricks gin on hand, also some Bombay and some tanquaray and finally a bottle of really cheap gin.

Mixed with tonic and a dash of lime - I defy anyone to correctly identiy them in a blind taste test.

Now in an extra dry martini (the drink of little old ladies who's pleasure in drinking is to get sloshed by 5 pm) I believe some might be able to taste the difference.



Shall we rein in our seconds, bind our wounds and retire to sharpen our swords for a foray another day?

My battle ensign still flies proudly at the top of my mast!
carsten

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by dannc

I must be sick but I find this discussion very interesting!

And not just the sword play.

(Can't believe that a boating related site does not have the sword fight emoticon! )

Later,
Dan

Welcome to the nerd club

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Is this correct flag etiquette?





Reading this thread helps me understand why yachting has an elitist reputation with the under-classes

Bit small (the boat - flag's about right)

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I'm perfectly happy to admit my understanding of which courtesy flag I must use in the UK comes from looking at the Weilbach website. I'd simply buy whatever they said was the appropriate flag (as I would with any other country) since there seem to be a multitude of UK flags to choose from.

I'm not an expert on UK flags.

Have we, during this discussion reached agreement on which ensign( is the correct courtesy flag for entering UK port?

UK protocol is to use the Red Duster as a courtesy flag. I can't see that Weilbach dispute this (they call the Union Flag a guest flag, as far as I can tell, not a courtesy flag).

Originally Posted by carstenb

Shall we reign in our seconds, bind our wounds and retire to sharpen our swords for a foray another day?

Yes, definitely . I enjoyed the sporting combat, so thanks for the exchange.

The bar is open if you are ever in the vicinity .

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

UK protocol is to use the Red Duster as a courtesy flag. I can't see that Weilbach dispute this (they call the Union Flag a guest flag, as far as I can tell, not a courtesy flag).



.

SWL - The word "Gæsteflag" (guestflag) means Courtesy flag in Danish.

a "guest flag (honor flag) would be described as an "Æresflag"

So there is a serious descrepancy between Weilbach (the jack with a white border) and the UK protocol of the Red Duster

[Hoofsmit]

Carstenb "The Honor flag (which is not a house flag as Dave contends, but an honor flag) "


Because I am a nerd: am I right in thinking that a

House flag is the owners flag

Honour ( honor if your a yank) is a guest flag ?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Hoofsmit]

Sorry typing at the same time


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

SWL - The word "Gæsteflag" (guestflag) means Courtesy flag in Danish.

a "guest flag (honor flag) would be described as an "Æresflag"

So there is a serious descrepancy between Weilbach (the jack with a white border) and the UK protocol of the Red Duster

Weilbach have a Civil Jack?
The white border on a Civil Jack is wide, I can't see this on their website.

Weilbach's do seem to have got the UK courtesy flag wrong if that is what "Gæsteflag" means. The Brits seems very specific that the appropriate courtesy flag when in the UK is the Red Duster. Might be a good idea to write to Weilbach. We wouldn't want any wars commencing over this .