Flag Etiquette Question

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Hi again Lassie (debates are wonderful - especialy since I keep increasing my collection of swords and Battle Ensigns )

1. Unfortunately this is in Danish (you can throw it through google translate if you decide not to trust my translation - but beware, I am completely bilinugal Danish/English and English/Danish including simultanious in both directions) Here goes (i've put in italics the interesting part:
......

I trust your translation (we are both honourable duellers) so I accept that this is the protocol according to the Danish National Sailing Association. By the way though, when was this included and by whom? Just someone recently misinterpreting what a House flag was?

Regardless, it still does not address the first matter under dispute though, where this flag should be flown. You have agreed "the only ensign flown at the starboard spreader can be that of the country being visited". If you hoist the national flag of someone for example from the US or France where the national flag and ensign are identical, you are in fact hoisting their ensign there.

This statement you made is totally contradictory to Danish protocol of not flying any ensign on the starboard spreader, except that of a host country:

Originally Posted by carstenb

We have american neighbors and when I take them sailing, we fly the stars and stripes from under starboard spreader.

Come sailing with me and I'll be happy to fly the US flag from under the starboard spreader

So no sir, you have not yet addressed this matter in a satisfactory way.

Originally Posted by carstenb

2- I see no inconsistency here. yes, The courtesy flag can be either.

Carsten, you initially simply stated your courtesy flag of choice for the UK would be the Union Flag. No mention that either that OR the ensign could be used. Now you are saying it can be either?

I accept though your retreat though and leave you with your sword, so that we can focus on the first matter .

[Hoofsmit]

#248 My link describes it as well it's priority or swop sides...... Have a read



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[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

SWL..... Just for you from wiki

Pennon (or pennant), a narrow, tapering flag commonly flown by ships at sea:
Pennant (commissioning), the traditional sign of a warship, flown from its masthead while the ship is in commission
Broad pennant, flown from the masthead of a Royal Navy ship to indicate the presence of a commodore on board
Pennant (church), flown by navies during services on board ships
Pennant Measures, a stratigraphic division of the South Wales Coal Measures and including the Pennant Sandstone


A pennon was one of the principal three varieties of flags carried during the Middle Ages (the other two were the banner and the standard).[1] Pennoncells and streamers or pendants are minor varieties of this style of flag.


The majority of burgees or club flags are pennant shaped , thus most honour flags are described as pennants I would suggest but I stand to be corrected........ Not getting into this sword thing ..... I am unarmed!!!!!!

Thank you Hoof. LtCol Starrett had me thoroughly bamboozled calling a pennant a pendant. Particularly when there was gin involved .

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

"the only ENSIGN flown at the starboard spreader can be that of the country being visited".

That is true only if you are visiting a foreign country. Sailing the waters of the country of registration you fly the visitor "courtesy flag" at the starboard spreader IMHO.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

That is true only if you are visiting a foreign country. Sailing the waters of the country of registration you fly the visitor "courtesy flag" at the starboard spreader IMHO.

Teddy, this is what we are trying to get to the bottom of. People are casually doing all sorts of things here in the Med (obvious from the use of the Union Flag and GB ensign seen flying at the stern of boats recently), including local boats flying ensigns on the starboard side. Probably doing this elsewhere as well.

Have you seen anything in writing from any reputable sources to say that it is appropriate to fly an ensign of another country on the starboard spreader in your own waters, but not elsewhere?

The Flag and Etiquette Committee for the US Power Squadrons have put this forward (I presume it applies just for US registered vessels though):

Foreign Guest Flags
When a foreign guest is aboard, you may display the ensign of the guest's country from the bow staff or outboard port spreader. Should more than one such guest flag be appropriate, wear them on spreader halyards from port to starboard in the alphabetical order of their countries' names in the English language.

[Hoofsmit]

Here you go


Note: if the burgee is flown at the starboard spreaders and you are entering the territorial waters of another country, you have a dilemma. The starboard spreaders are used for signalling purposes so this is where both the country’s national courtesy flag and the Q flag should be flown. You may not fly any other flag above a national courtesy flag on the same halyard. If your masthead is cluttered with a VHF aerial, wind indicator, trilight and other modern gadgets, the best way round this is to rig a second signal halyard at the starboard spreaders and avoid the conflict.


In my view a burgee is a honour flag whether it be the national flag for that citizen and also there ensign is immaterial


This is where the countries who do not use there national flag as there ensign start to make sense....... Well to me anyway !

[El Pinguino]

OK so you have an Englishman, a Belgian, a Frenchman and a German as your 'honoured guests'... which flag is flown superior to the others and what is the 'pecking order' on your port spreader?

[Hoofsmit]

Rank....... Simples......... But would you really want to?

As I have said already, I would reserve an honour flag for royalty, high ranking naval officer or club commodore ( if I was into the club thing or racing )


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[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

Rank....... Simples......... But would you really want to?

No I wouldn't, much as I like flags and correct usage I think it the honoured guest thing is a bit of a megawonk and nothing less than the royal standard at the peak would do it for me ( and she would have to bring her own).

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

OK so you have an Englishman, a Belgian, a Frenchman and a German as your 'honoured guests'... which flag is flown superior to the others and what is the 'pecking order' on your port spreader?

That is actually easy to answer. They are of equal status and should all fly at the same level (therefore multiple halyards are required). The acceptable order seems to be alphabetical from port to starboard.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

In my view a burgee is a honour flag whether it be the national flag for that citizen and also there ensign is immaterial

This is where the countries who do not use there national flag as there ensign start to make sense....... Well to me anyway !

Hoof, I very much doubt a national flag could be described as just a "burgee", but hey, I am often wrong about lots .

I'm still not convinced the starboard halyard is traditionally an appropriate spot for any ensign other than that of a host country, but with lots of opinions to the contrary, it is time for me to throw in the towel (but definitely not to hand over my sword - how else is a lassie expected to be able to slash open champagne bottles ).

I have learned heaps from participating in this thread. Thanks everyone for all the information, debating and laughs.

Flag flying has always been extremely simple for me and will continue to be so (we fly an ensign at the stern showing our yacht's country of registration and a courtesy flag on the starboard halyard for our host country). We have never bothered with any house flags etc. Guest flags just seem an odd concept to me, regardless of who may be on board our boat. I find the traditions and various practices fascinating though.

I am now armed with more knowledge regarding courtesy flags, although it is still a bit of a mystery what the appropriate courtesy flag is for some countries where the national flag and ensign are different. At least I now know what my own country's government likes to have used as a courtesy flag, even if that doesn't quite agree with what experts Aussie vexillologists deem appropriate . And I can breathe easy knowing I am definitely not anyone's 'subject' .

SWL

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

And I can breathe easy knowing I am definitely not anyone's 'subject' .

SWL

I've dug out an old Oz passport issued in 1973 .... says 'Australian Citizen and British Subject' but as issued the 'and British Subject' bit has been 'stamped' out and deleted. Seems you haven't been under the yoke of British Imperialism for quite some time.

[Hoofsmit]

Me to

Happy hoisting !




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[Jaxxiam]

Originally Posted by carstenb

The coutesy flag visiting boats must use is the rectrangular.

Do we use the rectangular flag with the notch or the one without the notch, they both look rectangular to me. Unless it is an effect of my pixel count.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I've dug out an old Oz passport issued in 1973 .... says 'Australian Citizen and British Subject' but as issued the 'and British Subject' bit has been 'stamped' out and deleted. Seems you haven't been under the yoke of British Imperialism for quite some time.

I think most Aussie's would say never at heart. We are just too laid back to bother fussing with completely severing ties .

And the biggest stumbling block is that no one has come up with a better flag alternative yet. Is there anyone that doesn't shudder looking at some of the 'green and gold' options that have been put forward?