Flag Etiquette Question

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Carsten, don't feel badly, Weilbach are also terribly confused.

In their blurb about courtesy flags on the English version of their website, they say to use the national maritime flag of the host country as a courtesy flag.

Maritime flags and signs - Weilbach has it all!
Click on the little triangle next to 'Open' under the map and this is what you find:

Not ot beat a dead horse :dead horsebeat:

But they also say, contrary to Dave and the Current RYA thinking, that the starbord spreader is the correct spreader for house or other flags, retiring to the port spreader if the starboard spreader is needed ofr other flags

House flags (those defining the owner) are usually flown from the mainmast truck. When a club burgee is flown, it will normally be hoisted to the truck of the most forward mast. On a sloop, then, not having a foremast, the house flag could be moved to the port spreader if the starboard spreader was in use, and a burgee was being flown. On a ketch, the house flag would be moved to the mizzen.

[Hoofsmit]

Is it me or are some getting confused between house, courtesy and " oh , by the way I have souls on board from somewhere else as well, that I want suck upto" flags


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Hoofsmit]

Not to mention pendants and pennants !!!
He he


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

Is it me or are some getting confused between house, courtesy and " oh , by the way I have souls on board from somewhere else as well, that I want suck upto" flags


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

yes I think we all are

[carstenb]

By the way - here's the OP original question

My boat was built with a short flagstaff incapable of carrying an ensign appropriate to the size of the boat. I got tired of the stupid little ensign and bought a bigger one. Since it wouldn't fit the flagstaff, I tied it to the backstay. And that looked stupid in its own way, drooping on the deck when there's no wind.

But then I saw a Finnish boat with the ensign hauled half way up the backstay -- and I thought it looked terrific! So I hauled my ensign up on a halyard, with a downhaul.

Is this permitted? I remember reading somewhere the permitted positions of the ensign on a single-masted yacht, but can't remember them, or where to find it.

Well at least we are still posting about flags................

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Not ot beat a dead horse :dead horsebeat:

But they also say, contrary to Dave and the Current RYA thinking, that the starbord spreader is the correct spreader for house or other flags, retiring to the port spreader if the starboard spreader is needed ofr other flags

House flags (those defining the owner) are usually flown from the mainmast truck. When a club burgee is flown, it will normally be hoisted to the truck of the most forward mast. On a sloop, then, not having a foremast, the house flag could be moved to the port spreader if the starboard spreader was in use, and a burgee was being flown. On a ketch, the house flag would be moved to the mizzen.

LOL, read it again. The Danish site say HOUSE flags (they even specify these as "those defining the owner") can be moved to the port spreader if the starboard is on use. A house flag is NOT a national or maritime flag.

This actually agrees, not disagrees with the RYA, but has nothing to do with displaying a flag for a guest in board.
Note Weilbach also go on to say:
"The only ensign ever flown from the starboard spreader or yardarm is that of a nation being visited. This is known as a courtesy hoisting of a courtesy Flag."

Carsten, absolutely nothing they have written discusses flying a flag for a guest on board and they actually clearly specify that the only ensign that can be flown from the starboard halyard is that of nation being visited.

Are you ready to strike your colours yet?

[Hoofsmit]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

LOL, read it again. The Danish site say HOUSE flags (they even specify these as "those defining the owner") can be moved to the port spreader if the starboard is on use. A house flag is NOT a national or maritime flag.

Yes, this agrees with the RYA, but has nothing to do with displaying a flag for a guest in board.
Note Weilbach also go on to say:
"The only ensign ever flown from the starboard spreader or yardarm is that of a nation being visited. This is known as a courtesy hoisting of a courtesy Flag."

Carsten, absolutely nothing they have written discusses flying a flag for a guest on board and they actually clearly specify that the only ensign that can be flown from the starboard halyard is that of nation being visited.

Are you ready to strike your colours yet?

Thank you ...... Tis as I see it !


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Hoofsmit]

http://www.ab-sailingcruises.co.uk/flagetiquette.pdf


This sums it up nicely for us Brits n cornishmen....... Also covers regional courtesy flags..... Unfortunately St Pirans is not noted !


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

LOL, read it again. The Danish site say HOUSE flags (they even specify these as "those defining the owner") can be moved to the port spreader if the starboard is on use. A house flag is NOT a national or maritime flag.

This actually agrees, not disagrees with the RYA, but has nothing to do with displaying a flag for a guest in board.
Note Weilbach also go on to say:
"The only ensign ever flown from the starboard spreader or yardarm is that of a nation being visited. This is known as a courtesy hoisting of a courtesy Flag."

Carsten, absolutely nothing they have written discusses flying a flag for a guest on board and they actually clearly specify that the only ensign that can be flown from the starboard halyard is that of nation being visited.

Are you ready to strike your colours yet?

Never! I have not yet begun to fight! LOL.

Sorry Lassie - you need to keep reading


The flag that indicates nationality on a ship is called an ensign. As with the national flags, there are three varieties: the civil ensign, flown by private owned vessels; state ensigns (also called government ensigns), flown by government ships; and war ensigns (also called naval ensigns), flown by naval vessels.

You're absolutely correct - the only ENSIGN flown at the starboard spreader can be that of the country being visiited (now read the definitioi of ensign).

An honor flag (or some such including house flags) are not ensigns.

Dame Lassie - I shall also require your sword!

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Never! I have not yet begun to fight! LOL.

Sorry Lassie - you need to keep reading


The flag that indicates nationality on a ship is called an ensign. As with the national flags, there are three varieties: the civil ensign, flown by private owned vessels; state ensigns (also called government ensigns), flown by government ships; and war ensigns (also called naval ensigns), flown by naval vessels.

You're absolutely correct - the only ENSIGN flown at the starboard spreader can be that of the country being visiited (now read the definitioi of ensign).

An honor flag (or some such including house flags) are not ensigns.

Dame Lassie - I shall also require your sword!

En garde!

First matter under dispute regarding Danish protocol: When flying flags for guests on board, where are they displayed.
I still have not seen one scrap of evidence that Danish protocol states the national flag of the guest can be flown on board, let alone that you should select the starboard spreader if it is not in use. A national flag is definitely not a house flag under anyone's definition.

Carsten, what do you do when the national flag and ensign are identical?
You told Dockhead you would fly the flag of the US on the starboard spreader for him if he sailed with you. Clearly this is not permissible, as it is the same flag as the ensign of the US. We both agree "the only ENSIGN flown at the starboard spreader can be that of the country being visited".


Second matter under dispute regarding Danish protocol: You are insisting the national flag is used as the courtesy flag for the host country.
In Weilbach's blurb about courtesy flags on the English version of their Danish website (to paraphrase you "the world's oldest store for Maps/Charts and nautical equipment and literature"), they say to use the national maritime flag of the host country as a courtesy flag.
Your case decidedly weak if "the world's oldest store for Maps/Charts and nautical equipment and literature", a Danish one at that, disagrees with you.

Over to you .
Lassies love a good debate .

[carstenb]

Hi again Lassie (debates are wonderful - especialy since I keep increasing my collection of swords and Battle Ensigns )

Unfortunately this is in Danish (you can throw it through google translate if you decide not to trust my translation - but beware, I am completely bilinugal Danish/English and English/Danish including simultanious translationss in both directions) Here goes (i've put in italics the interesting part:

ed ankomst til udlandet viser man respekt ved at hejse værtsnationens flag.

Høflighedsflaget hejses i yderste styrbord flagfald under øverste saling. Det hejses ved normal flagtid under ophold i udlandet og ellers ved ankomst til den pågældende nations farvand eller havn.

Foretages sejladsen direkte fra egen havn til udenlandsk havn kan høflighedsflaget sættes ved afrejse. Der kan kun sættes én nations flag ad gangen.
Høflighedsflaget nedhales, når man forlader fremmed nations farvand og inden man anløber dansk havn.

Man kan hædre en udenlandsk gæst om bord ved at føre vedkommendes nationalflag under styrbord saling. Sejler man i tredje lands farvand, må gæstens nationalflag føres under bagbord saling (fordi høflighedsflaget føres under styrbord saling).


You may honor a foreign guest on board by hoisting that persons national flag under the starboard spreader. If you are sailing in a third country's territorial waters, then the guests national flag retires to the port spreader (because the coutesy flag must be flown under the starboard spreader)

Source - Danish National Flag Etiquette published by the Danish National Sailing Association and the Danish Royal Yacht Club.

So remembering thata enigns are all flags, but not all flags are ensigns, this should take care of your first question. Since the US flag is both the National flag and their ensign - I would fly that (none other being available).

2- I see no inconsistency here. yes, The courtesy flag can be either. In the US there is no difference in National flags and maritime flags. Visitors to Denmark must fly the rectangular flag (National flag) because they are not allowed to fly the split flag (this being the provence of the Royal family, the armed forces and private leisure yachts).

parry, riposte

By the way Weilbach is actually the oldest store of its kind in the world, which may not make them an expert, but they've been around longer than anyone else.

[dannc]

I must be sick but I find this discussion very interesting!

And not just the sword play.

(Can't believe that a boating related site does not have the sword fight emoticon! )

Later,
Dan

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by dannc

(Can't believe that a boating related site does not have the sword fight emoticon! )

Hi Dan, here is something even better:



PS Glad you are enjoying the action .

[Hoofsmit]

SWL..... Just for you from wiki

Pennon (or pennant), a narrow, tapering flag commonly flown by ships at sea:
Pennant (commissioning), the traditional sign of a warship, flown from its masthead while the ship is in commission
Broad pennant, flown from the masthead of a Royal Navy ship to indicate the presence of a commodore on board
Pennant (church), flown by navies during services on board ships
Pennant Measures, a stratigraphic division of the South Wales Coal Measures and including the Pennant Sandstone


A pennon was one of the principal three varieties of flags carried during the Middle Ages (the other two were the banner and the standard).[1] Pennoncells and streamers or pendants are minor varieties of this style of flag.


The majority of burgees or club flags are pennant shaped , thus most honour flags are described as pennants I would suggest but I stand to be corrected........ Not getting into this sword thing ..... I am unarmed!!!!!!

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Dan, here is something even better:



PS Glad you are enjoying the action .

THAT is what I was looking for!

Later,
Dan