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Old 13-08-2014, 03:20   #211
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
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Thanks Dave, that clears up something for me (and perhaps SWL). I had been trying to understand the difference between a "subject" and a "citizen" (in a legal sense). Your post helped to clarify (for me) the different meanings of the word as it applies to the ordinary folk of the UK (or even Oz).
I just KNEW I wasn't a subject (although prior to doing a lot of reading I thought British citizens were still subjects)

Wot, I think the change came into force in 1983. This is what I posted earlier:

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
This explanation may help:

"On 1 January 1983, upon the coming into force of the British Nationality Act 1981, every citizen of the United Kingdom and colonies became either a British citizen, British Dependent Territories citizen or British Overseas citizen.

Use of the term British subject was discontinued for all persons who fell into these categories, or who had a national citizenship of any other Commonwealth country. The category of British subjects now includes only those people formerly known as British subjects without citizenship and people born in Ireland before 1949. In statutes passed before 1 January 1983, however, references to British subjects are interpreted as if they referred to Commonwealth citizens.

British citizens are not British subjects under the 1981 Act. The only circumstance where a person may be both a British subject and British citizen simultaneously is a case where a British subject connected with Ireland (s. 31 of the 1981 Act) acquires British citizenship by naturalisation or registration. In this case only, British subject status is not lost upon acquiring British citizenship. The status of British subject cannot now be transmitted by descent, and will become extinct with the passing of all existing British subjects.

British subjects, other than by those who obtained their status by virtue of a connection to Ireland prior to 1949, automatically lose their British subject status on acquiring any other nationality, including British citizenship, under section 35 of the British Nationality Act 1981."
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Old 13-08-2014, 03:26   #212
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
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Thanks Dave, that clears up something for me (and perhaps SWL). I had been trying to understand the difference between a "subject" and a "citizen" (in a legal sense). Your post helped to clarify (for me) the different meanings of the word as it applies to the ordinary folk of the UK (or even Oz).



By the way, when did the UK nationality act come into being?



OK, back to regular flag waving

1983 I believe
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Old 13-08-2014, 03:29   #213
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
True, I stand corrected.

I have just been reading that the term "nationality" applies not just to people, but boats also.



Consider me suitably chastised .

Oooo. we're not back to that whipping thing again are we !


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Old 13-08-2014, 03:34   #214
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Oooo. we're not back to that whipping thing again are we !
Nah, it was just a sharp rap on the knuckles that Wot administered .
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Old 13-08-2014, 03:34   #215
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

We still haven't resolved the one burning question, if you are a foreign boat with a UK guest on board , what flag do you fly ( from the port flag halyard ).

Personally my belief is its the UK pilot Jack.

Dave
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Old 13-08-2014, 03:45   #216
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
We still haven't resolved the one burning question, if you are a foreign boat with a UK guest on board , what flag do you fly ( from the port flag halyard ).

Personally my belief is its the UK pilot Jack.

Dave
Dave, what makes you think that?

The only detailed info I could find about its current use is this:

The Pilot Jack may be flown by those who wish to “show the flag” on a British registered yacht. It consists of the Union Flag surrounded by a white rectangular border and is used as follows:-
• as a stem-head jack in the bows
• an additional dressing-ship flag to be hung on a weighted line from the bowsprit
• as a signal for a pilot when hoisted at the fore
It must not be worn underway unless the yacht is dressed “over-all”.


Edited to add:
Even the above doesn't seem quite right (it is no longer used as the signal for a pilot)
Anyway, its use seems to be as a jack on a UK boat, not for use on the port halyard of a foreign boat.
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Old 13-08-2014, 03:54   #217
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

This is where he is coming from
I would fly the red ensign or in my case St Pirans

Pilot or Civil Jack

The Union Jack with a white border.
The flag in a white border occasionally seen on merchant ships was sometimes referred to as the Pilot Jack. It can be traced back to 1823 when it was created as a signal flag, never intended as a civil jack. A book[clarification needed] issued to British consuls in 1855 states that the white bordered Union Flag is to be hoisted for a pilot. Although there was some ambiguity regarding the legality of it being flown for any other purpose on civilian vessels, its use as an ensign or jack was established well in advance of the 1864 Act that designated the Red Ensign for merchant shipping. In 1970, the white-bordered Union Flag ceased to be the signal for a pilot, but references to it as national colours were not removed from the current Merchant Shipping Act and it was legally interpreted as a flag that could be flown on a merchant ship, as a jack if desired. This status was confirmed to an extent by the Merchant Shipping (Registration, etc.) Act 1993 and the consolidating Merchant Shipping Act 1995 which, in Section 4, Subsection 1, prohibits the use of any distinctive national colours or those used or resembling flags or pendants on Her Majesty's Ships, "except the Red Ensign, the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border", and some other exceptions permitted elsewhere in the Acts. However, Section 2 regards the 'British flag', and states that "The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the Red Ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to (a warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, or an Order of Council from her Majesty regarding a defaced Red Ensign), no other colours."[58] The ultimate determination of legality, however, is that many civil vessels routinely fly the white bordered Union Flag without official opposition, making it the de facto Civil Jack.[citation needed]


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Old 13-08-2014, 04:01   #218
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofsmit View Post
This is where he is coming from
I would fly the red ensign or in my case St Pirans

Pilot or Civil Jack

The Union Jack with a white border.
The flag in a white border occasionally seen on merchant ships was sometimes referred to as the Pilot Jack. It can be traced back to 1823 when it was created as a signal flag, never intended as a civil jack. A book[clarification needed] issued to British consuls in 1855 states that the white bordered Union Flag is to be hoisted for a pilot. Although there was some ambiguity regarding the legality of it being flown for any other purpose on civilian vessels, its use as an ensign or jack was established well in advance of the 1864 Act that designated the Red Ensign for merchant shipping. In 1970, the white-bordered Union Flag ceased to be the signal for a pilot, but references to it as national colours were not removed from the current Merchant Shipping Act and it was legally interpreted as a flag that could be flown on a merchant ship, as a jack if desired. This status was confirmed to an extent by the Merchant Shipping (Registration, etc.) Act 1993 and the consolidating Merchant Shipping Act 1995 which, in Section 4, Subsection 1, prohibits the use of any distinctive national colours or those used or resembling flags or pendants on Her Majesty's Ships, "except the Red Ensign, the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border", and some other exceptions permitted elsewhere in the Acts. However, Section 2 regards the 'British flag', and states that "The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the Red Ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to (a warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, or an Order of Council from her Majesty regarding a defaced Red Ensign), no other colours."[58] The ultimate determination of legality, however, is that many civil vessels routinely fly the white bordered Union Flag without official opposition, making it the de facto Civil Jack.[citation needed]
I can't see anything there that would indicate that a foreign vessel could fly the Civil Jack on its port halyard if it has a UK guest on board .
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Old 13-08-2014, 04:06   #219
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

I would fly this (from the starboard spreader). This is the couresy flag for the UK (source Weilbach the world's oldest store for Maps/Charts and nautical equipment and literature)
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Old 13-08-2014, 04:44   #220
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

This is from AMSAs web page .

Flying the flag

Registered commercial ships over 24 metres in tonnage length must fly the Australian Red Ensign. All other registered ships have the choice of flying either the Australian National Flag or the Red Ensign.

An unregistered Australian owned ship can be issued with a certificate entitling it to fly either flag. Some ships are allowed to fly other flags in Australian waters only. These include: a State or Territory flag, a flag or ensign authorised by warrant under the*Flags Act 1953, and the British Blue Ensign if the owner intending to fly it has a warrant to do so valid under British law.




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Old 13-08-2014, 05:05   #221
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I would fly this (from the starboard spreader). This is the couresy flag for the UK (source Weilbach the world's oldest store for Maps/Charts and nautical equipment and literature)
Carsten, that is really odd.

Although this is not always the case, courtesy flags are usually the national maritime flag of the country you are visiting. I have found nothing to indicate that the UK is one of the counties that wants you to deviate from this convention.

Edited to add:
I have just had a look at Weilbach and I can't find a section for courtesy flags, only National flags. Do you have a link?


This was the info regarding the UK in the World Flag Database:
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Old 13-08-2014, 05:12   #222
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Am I misinterpreting this bit in the document? (see attachment)

I think it is incorrect, as residents of Australia may choose to fly the National Flag or the Australian Red Ensign on privately owned registered small vessels as well, not just unregistered ones.

The new regs were introduced in 1981, so that it why I thought the document must have been written before then.
OK lassie, your knuckles have already been rapped once

Your young eyes didn't read on pass your attached bit but my older more pedantic eyes find on page 6, it says
quote "This bill was introduced into Parliament on 22 May 1980 and provided for the establishment of an Australian
Register of Ships. The Government at first proposed that the National Flag should replace the Red Ensign as the
proper colours for all civilian vessels, whether registered or not. However, after further consideration, it was
announced on 21 August 1980 that Australian merchant ships will continue to fly the Australian Red Ensign as
their national colours. Also, that yachts and other civilian vessels outside the merchant service will be allowed to
fly either the Australian National Flag or the Australian Red Ensign
and that yachts holding a warrant for the use of
the British Blue Ensign could continue to wear this ensign." unquote
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Old 13-08-2014, 05:21   #223
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
..........
This is the most extensive information I found for Australian registered yachts:
http://www.foxsportspulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=2741384
Aussies have their priorities right - on page 7 of this very formal document it even lists the protocol for the Gin Pendant (the green and white one Dave posted an image of). Like its British counterpart, no mention is made regarding the use of national flags for guests.
....................
I am not sure which of these two flags visitors to Australia should select as their courtesy flag, but I would guess the red one, as it is what is suggested for private Aussie vessels in home waters.............
And on page 7 of the referenced document.
quote "Foreign vessels visiting Australia should fly the Australian National Flag as the courtesy flag." unquote

Clearly you stopped reading once you got to the Gin Pendant - perhaps went straight to the drinks cabinet
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Old 13-08-2014, 05:40   #224
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
And on page 7 of the referenced document.
quote "Foreign vessels visiting Australia should fly the Australian National Flag as the courtesy flag." unquote

Clearly you stopped reading once you got to the Gin Pendant - perhaps went straight to the drinks cabinet

See Post #193 which gives the official stance according to the "Awards & Culture Branch, Dept of Prime Minister & Cabinet" which I would suggest trumps your reference
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Old 13-08-2014, 05:45   #225
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Carsten, that is really odd.

Although this is not always the case, courtesy flags are usually the national maritime flag of the country you are visiting. I have found nothing to indicate that the UK is one of the counties that wants you to deviate from this convention.
I was tought (and in old days the schooling and training for sailing was extremely serious in Poland) that the courtesy flag should be always a natonal flag of the visited country, not the merchant or other ensign.
The rationale behind this was: the ensign is to show the nationality of the ship bearing it, the courtesy flag is to the honour of visited country.
The exception was possible for warships, paying official visits, to hoist the naval ensign of visited fleet to her honour, by permission granted by proper flag officer of visited fleet.

By the way, I use national flags for crew nationalities for the same reason - they are flags to give a honour to the nationality of somebody on board, not to show the nationality of ship.

Cheers,

Tomasz
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