|
|
12-08-2014, 23:39
|
#196
|
Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Boat: now skippering Syd Harbour charters
Posts: 1,557
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
AusFlag: Red Ensign
...agrees with our understanding of the proper use of Australian flags by Australian vessels...
" The Australian Red Ensign, is for use only at sea and officially never on land.... At sea, it is the only flag allowable for merchant ships registered in Australia under the Navigation and Shipping Act 1912 and The Shipping Registration Act 1981. Pleasure craft, however, may fly either the Red Ensign or the National Flag."
We understand the reference above to "pleasure craft" applies to vessels in domestic waters because any Australian vessel overseas MUST by on the Australian Register of Ships...and thus be obliged to fly the Red Ensign, at least when at sea.
As for the correct courtesy flag in OZ, NFI...
|
|
|
12-08-2014, 23:44
|
#197
|
Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
OK, one for Dave.
Reading through the current Australian Shipping Act, when out of Australian waters, Aussie flags to which a warrant applies (eg yacht club flags) are not to be used.
Does the same restriction apply for British boats outside of British waters?
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
|
|
|
12-08-2014, 23:46
|
#198
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,891
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by D&D
AusFlag: Red Ensign
...agrees with our understanding of the proper use of Australian flags by Australian vessels...
" The Australian Red Ensign, is for use only at sea and officially never on land.... At sea, it is the only flag allowable for merchant ships registered in Australia under the Navigation and Shipping Act 1912 and The Shipping Registration Act 1981. Pleasure craft, however, may fly either the Red Ensign or the National Flag."
We understand the reference above to "pleasure craft" applies to vessels in domestic waters because any Australian vessel overseas MUST by on the Australian Register of Ships...and thus be obliged to fly the Red Ensign, at least when at sea.
|
Being on the Register of ships does not make the vessel a "merchant ship".
From the Govt publication referenced about :
"The Australian red ensign is the flag to be flown by Australian-registered merchant ships. Either the Australian National Flag or the Australian red ensign can be flown by government ships, fishing vessels, pleasure craft, small craft and commercial vessels under 24 metres in tonnage length, but not both ensigns at the same time."
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 00:01
|
#199
|
Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by D&D
We understand the reference above to "pleasure craft" applies to vessels in domestic waters because any Australian vessel overseas MUST by on the Australian Register of Ships...and thus be obliged to fly the Red Ensign, at least when at sea.
|
No, according to the Shipping Registration Act 1981, Section 30(2), either can be flown outside Australian waters:
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2013C00349
Quote:
Originally Posted by D&D
As for the correct courtesy flag in OZ, NFI...
|
The answer is 'either'. Stu found it in this Aust Gov pdf file:
http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/symbol...gs_excerpt.pdf
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 01:14
|
#200
|
Moderator
Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea somewhere in the Pacific
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 6,380
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Here's a little more confusion.
In Denmark, a Danish boat may, by royal decree, fly the Royal/naval split ensign so long as the letters YF are shown in the uppermost left hand quadrant.
The coutesy flag visiting boats must use is the rectrangular.
__________________
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=carsten...ref=nb_sb_noss
Our books have gotten 5 star reviews on Amazon. Several readers have written "I never thought I would go on a circumnavigation, but when I read these books, I was right there in the cockpit with Vinni and Carsten"
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 01:27
|
#201
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Posts: 1,338
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
I read all i could find. As far as I can see to fly the red ensign is ONLY allowed if the vessel appears on the Australian Ships Registry.
Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Simon
Bavaria 50 Cruiser
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 01:32
|
#202
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Posts: 1,338
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
I just had a look over the marina. Foreign flagged visitors all seem to be flying the blue Oz curtisy flag.
Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Simon
Bavaria 50 Cruiser
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 01:34
|
#203
|
Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
|
Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass
OK, one for Dave.
Reading through the current Australian Shipping Act, when out of Australian waters, Aussie flags to which a warrant applies (eg yacht club flags) are not to be used.
Does the same restriction apply for British boats outside of British waters?
|
The relevant law in the UK is the 1955 Merchant Shipping Act, Part I. Defaced ensigns appropriately warranted are regarded as national colours and are treated in exactly the same way as the conventional maritime ensign. Hence they may be flown in international waters.
Note part 1 also sets out the rules for flying of flags. The requirement to raise at sunrise and furl at sunset is merely etiquette not law for leisure vessels. The RN can require a ensign to be shown. But cannot require it to be hidden
In the Republic of Ireland the relevant act, also called the Merchant Shipping Act 1955 also declares that warranted ensigns are national colours and are flown accordingly. The act is worded very similarly which suggests its a pseudo-copy of the UK one.
Dave
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 01:53
|
#204
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: cornwall uk
Posts: 574
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
So in reality, which countries are we likely to get in trouble with if the correct flag etiquette is not adhered to.
Obviously good manners with regard to etiquette is always the best course of action when visiting someone else's world, but has anybody been slapped on the wrist or restrictions applied to there craft because of flags/ ensigns display
Obviously the Q flag is of importance
It would be nice to hear what happens in reality
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 01:59
|
#205
|
Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV
I read all i could find. As far as I can see to fly the red ensign is ONLY allowed if the vessel appears on the Australian Ships Registry.
|
The Shipping Registration Act 1981 has all the info buried somewhere in it:
Shipping Registration Act 1981
Here is what I have dug up :
Pleasure craft are exempted from registration - see Section 13.
A ship does not necessarily have to be registered to have Australian nationality - see Section 29 (1).
If unregistered, the national colours for an Australian ship are either the Australian national flag, or the Australian red ensign - see Section 30 (1).
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 02:02
|
#206
|
Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,400
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
The Australian flag (blue one); I'm sure the red one is only permitted for real Australians.
Posted by SWL
No, it is also the flag flown by merchant ships if registered in an Australian port.
|
Err... a merchant ship is a real Australian if it is registered in an Australian Port - by definition
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 02:05
|
#207
|
Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
|
Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofsmit
So in reality, which countries are we likely to get in trouble with if the correct flag etiquette is not adhered to.
Obviously good manners with regard to etiquette is always the best course of action when visiting someone else's world, but has anybody been slapped on the wrist or restrictions applied to there craft because of flags/ ensigns display
Obviously the Q flag is of importance
It would be nice to hear what happens in reality
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
|
Actually , personally I find the use of the Q flag becoming less common as in many countries check in of leisure boats now take place on land. ( certainly in the carribean and around the Med and the US ) I do find certain countries very exercised over flying courtesy flags.
Dave
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 02:08
|
#208
|
Moderator
Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea somewhere in the Pacific
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 6,380
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
Actually , personally I find the use of the Q flag becoming less common as many checking of leisure boats now take place on land. I do find certain countries very exercised over flying courtesy flags.
Dave
|
Sailing into Gilbralter a couple of yeras ago, the marina hand who pointed out our slip and helped with the lines, told us ni no uncerntain terms that the very first thing we had to do was hoist our british courtesy flag ("and I mean before you do anything else!")
Later that day I saw a notice from the Port Captain on the board by the harbour office.
"Any boat not flying the correct courtesy flag is to be denied docking and told to leave the port and not return until they have learned to show the proper respect"
So some do take this very seriously.
__________________
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=carsten...ref=nb_sb_noss
Our books have gotten 5 star reviews on Amazon. Several readers have written "I never thought I would go on a circumnavigation, but when I read these books, I was right there in the cockpit with Vinni and Carsten"
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 02:09
|
#209
|
Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,400
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
Since the nationality act Britons are no longer subjects but citizens of the UK !
Dave
|
Thread Drift alert
Thanks Dave, that clears up something for me (and perhaps SWL). I had been trying to understand the difference between a "subject" and a "citizen" (in a legal sense). Your post helped to clarify (for me) the different meanings of the word as it applies to the ordinary folk of the UK (or even Oz).
By the way, when did the UK nationality act come into being?
OK, back to regular flag waving
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
|
|
|
13-08-2014, 02:14
|
#210
|
Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
|
Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
Err... a merchant ship is a real Australian if it is registered in an Australian Port - by definition
|
True, I stand corrected.
I have just been reading that the term "nationality" applies not just to people, but boats also.
Consider me suitably chastised .
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Rate This Thread |
Linear Mode
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Advertise Here
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Vendor Spotlight |
|
|
|
|
|