Flag Etiquette Question

[D&D]

AusFlag: Red Ensign

...agrees with our understanding of the proper use of Australian flags by Australian vessels...

"The Australian Red Ensign, is for use only at sea and officially never on land.... At sea, it is the only flag allowable for merchant ships registered in Australia under the Navigation and Shipping Act 1912 and The Shipping Registration Act 1981. Pleasure craft, however, may fly either the Red Ensign or the National Flag."

We understand the reference above to "pleasure craft" applies to vessels in domestic waters because any Australian vessel overseas MUST by on the Australian Register of Ships...and thus be obliged to fly the Red Ensign, at least when at sea.

As for the correct courtesy flag in OZ, NFI...

[Seaworthy Lass]

OK, one for Dave.

Reading through the current Australian Shipping Act, when out of Australian waters, Aussie flags to which a warrant applies (eg yacht club flags) are not to be used.

Does the same restriction apply for British boats outside of British waters?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by D&D

AusFlag: Red Ensign

...agrees with our understanding of the proper use of Australian flags by Australian vessels...

"The Australian Red Ensign, is for use only at sea and officially never on land.... At sea, it is the only flag allowable for merchant ships registered in Australia under the Navigation and Shipping Act 1912 and The Shipping Registration Act 1981. Pleasure craft, however, may fly either the Red Ensign or the National Flag."

We understand the reference above to "pleasure craft" applies to vessels in domestic waters because any Australian vessel overseas MUST by on the Australian Register of Ships...and thus be obliged to fly the Red Ensign, at least when at sea.

Being on the Register of ships does not make the vessel a "merchant ship".

From the Govt publication referenced about:
"The Australian red ensign is the flag to be flown by Australian-registered merchant ships. Either the Australian National Flag or the Australian red ensign can be flown by government ships, fishing vessels, pleasure craft, small craft and commercial vessels under 24 metres in tonnage length, but not both ensigns at the same time."

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by D&D

We understand the reference above to "pleasure craft" applies to vessels in domestic waters because any Australian vessel overseas MUST by on the Australian Register of Ships...and thus be obliged to fly the Red Ensign, at least when at sea.

No, according to the Shipping Registration Act 1981, Section 30(2), either can be flown outside Australian waters:
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2013C00349

Originally Posted by D&D

As for the correct courtesy flag in OZ, NFI...

The answer is 'either'. Stu found it in this Aust Gov pdf file:
http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/symbol...gs_excerpt.pdf

[carstenb]

Here's a little more confusion.

In Denmark, a Danish boat may, by royal decree, fly the Royal/naval split ensign so long as the letters YF are shown in the uppermost left hand quadrant.

The coutesy flag visiting boats must use is the rectrangular.

[SimonV]

I read all i could find. As far as I can see to fly the red ensign is ONLY allowed if the vessel appears on the Australian Ships Registry.

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[SimonV]

I just had a look over the marina. Foreign flagged visitors all seem to be flying the blue Oz curtisy flag.

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[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

OK, one for Dave.

Reading through the current Australian Shipping Act, when out of Australian waters, Aussie flags to which a warrant applies (eg yacht club flags) are not to be used.

Does the same restriction apply for British boats outside of British waters?

The relevant law in the UK is the 1955 Merchant Shipping Act, Part I. Defaced ensigns appropriately warranted are regarded as national colours and are treated in exactly the same way as the conventional maritime ensign. Hence they may be flown in international waters.

Note part 1 also sets out the rules for flying of flags. The requirement to raise at sunrise and furl at sunset is merely etiquette not law for leisure vessels. The RN can require a ensign to be shown. But cannot require it to be hidden


In the Republic of Ireland the relevant act, also called the Merchant Shipping Act 1955 also declares that warranted ensigns are national colours and are flown accordingly. The act is worded very similarly which suggests its a pseudo-copy of the UK one.


Dave

[Hoofsmit]

So in reality, which countries are we likely to get in trouble with if the correct flag etiquette is not adhered to.

Obviously good manners with regard to etiquette is always the best course of action when visiting someone else's world, but has anybody been slapped on the wrist or restrictions applied to there craft because of flags/ ensigns display

Obviously the Q flag is of importance

It would be nice to hear what happens in reality


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[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by SimonV

I read all i could find. As far as I can see to fly the red ensign is ONLY allowed if the vessel appears on the Australian Ships Registry.

The Shipping Registration Act 1981 has all the info buried somewhere in it:
Shipping Registration Act 1981

Here is what I have dug up :

Pleasure craft are exempted from registration - see Section 13.

A ship does not necessarily have to be registered to have Australian nationality - see Section 29 (1).

If unregistered, the national colours for an Australian ship are either the Australian national flag, or the Australian red ensign - see Section 30 (1).

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Wotname
The Australian flag (blue one); I'm sure the red one is only permitted for real Australians.

Posted by SWL
No, it is also the flag flown by merchant ships if registered in an Australian port.

Err... a merchant ship is a real Australian if it is registered in an Australian Port - by definition

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

So in reality, which countries are we likely to get in trouble with if the correct flag etiquette is not adhered to.

Obviously good manners with regard to etiquette is always the best course of action when visiting someone else's world, but has anybody been slapped on the wrist or restrictions applied to there craft because of flags/ ensigns display

Obviously the Q flag is of importance

It would be nice to hear what happens in reality


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Actually , personally I find the use of the Q flag becoming less common as in many countries check in of leisure boats now take place on land. ( certainly in the carribean and around the Med and the US ) I do find certain countries very exercised over flying courtesy flags.

Dave

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Actually , personally I find the use of the Q flag becoming less common as many checking of leisure boats now take place on land. I do find certain countries very exercised over flying courtesy flags.

Dave

Sailing into Gilbralter a couple of yeras ago, the marina hand who pointed out our slip and helped with the lines, told us ni no uncerntain terms that the very first thing we had to do was hoist our british courtesy flag ("and I mean before you do anything else!")

Later that day I saw a notice from the Port Captain on the board by the harbour office.

"Any boat not flying the correct courtesy flag is to be denied docking and told to leave the port and not return until they have learned to show the proper respect"

So some do take this very seriously.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Since the nationality act Britons are no longer subjects but citizens of the UK !

Dave

Thread Drift alert

Thanks Dave, that clears up something for me (and perhaps SWL). I had been trying to understand the difference between a "subject" and a "citizen" (in a legal sense). Your post helped to clarify (for me) the different meanings of the word as it applies to the ordinary folk of the UK (or even Oz).

By the way, when did the UK nationality act come into being?

OK, back to regular flag waving

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Err... a merchant ship is a real Australian if it is registered in an Australian Port - by definition

True, I stand corrected.
I have just been reading that the term "nationality" applies not just to people, but boats also.

Consider me suitably chastised .