Flag Etiquette Question

[Hoofsmit]

Sorry for the drift...... I got carried away


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

I remember Duke of York and Albany said something to this effect before outbreak of one of wars against Netherlands




Add to this famous "custom of winning"
And really, the Royal Navy of the age of sail was incredible feat of organisation. Almost unbelievable, but real.
Naval history was one of my main interest as far as from primary school and because of this I learnt also a lot about history of England, its politics, economy and so on, but still I have a feel I'm missing something...
How the not so a big (in numbers, of course) nation could organize such an enormous and orchestrated effort like during Napoleonic wars is almost beyond comprehension...

And... if given a possibility to use a time machine, my first wish would be to see annual West India convoy arriving to the Channel and meeting the awaiting fleet...

Sorry for another thread drift.

Tomasz

Thread drift , but interesting

A read of Nam A Rodgers books gives a fair understanding of the finances and why England built such a fleet. High taxes , massive extended credit to navy ( taken rather then provided I might add ! ) and an organisational zeal all contributed.

It must be remembered that possibly the Dutch provided an equivalent naval ability, but they always saw their navy as a commercial protection force rather then an instrument of projecting imperial might.

The French had the ability and the finances but in reality France never paid much attention to its Naval forces , given its superior ground forces and its land borders with its enemies ( with the exception of England )

The primary factor behind the RN success is actually the logistics of victualling at sea. The RN was vastly superior in keeping its fleet at sea over its opponents.

As to that an enviable ability at gunnery, especially rate of fire.

The ships on the other have were quite mediocre in design as in comparison,

Dave

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The ships on the other have were quite mediocre in design as in comparison,

Dave

Here I dare to disagree...

But we should probably make a new thread for this on Off Topic forum

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Here I dare to disagree...

But we should probably make a new thread for this on Off Topic forum

Yes agreed , off topic. I can offer many arguments to support my view, but here one. The French standard 80 gun ship of the line was such a successful vessel , a captured one formed the basis of a RN design , the reverse never happened.

Dave

[Jaxxiam]

[QUOTE=
Anyone dare me to swim over and ask why they are flying this flag? [/QUOTE]

Not that I'm anybody, I dare you!

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Jaxxiam

Not that I'm anybody, I dare you!

You are a day late LOL, but I did take up that dare .

[Seaworthy Lass]

A few things have emerged from this thread.

Probably the biggest is that flag etiquette is not an international thing, but specific to the country of yacht registration. When abroad, you generally continue to follow this. The only exception I can find is that you follow the host country's time for hoisting and lowering your flags.

Flag etiquette for British registered yachts can be found here:
http://www.woodenboats.lt/Knygos%20p...%20Signals.pdf
(For British registered boats the answer to Dockhead's original question can be found on page 8: 2/3 of the way up the leech)

and here:
http://www.yosc.org.uk/flagetiquette3.pdf

The info for US registered yachts can be found here:
Flag and Etiquette Committee

This is the most extensive information I found for Australian registered yachts:
http://www.foxsportspulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=2741384
Aussies have their priorities right - on page 7 of this very formal document it even lists the protocol for the Gin Pendant (the green and white one Dave posted an image of). Like its British counterpart, no mention is made regarding the use of national flags for guests.

It must be an old document though, as the info regarding the correct Aussie flag to fly is incorrect. Just because we are special, we can now choose between two ensigns :
"Under the Federal Shipping Registration Act, 1981, the Australian Red Ensign was retained as the national colours of Australia's merchant ships. Private pleasure craft were given the option of using this Red Ensign or the Australian National Flag. It is recommended that private craft wear the Red Ensign in home waters but use the national colours when overseas."

I am not sure which of these two flags visitors to Australia should select as their courtesy flag, but I would guess the red one, as it is what is suggested for private Aussie vessels in home waters.

Does anyone have any info on flag etiquette for other countries?

One of the biggest variations between countries seems to be the use of national flags for guests/charterers.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...... I think the world would be a better place if we invested somewhat less energy in the whole flags and symbols thing.

dave

Dave, with this insight you are well on your way to becoming a Australian citizen (but you can remain a British subject as well - if you like).

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

..............
It must be an old document though, as the info regarding the correct Aussie flag to fly is incorrect.

What part was incorrect; I didn't see anything wrong in this document but you do have younger eyes than me; please advise



Just because we are special, we can now choose between two ensigns :
"Under the Federal Shipping Registration Act, 1981, the Australian Red Ensign was retained as the national colours of Australia's merchant ships. Private pleasure craft were given the option of using this Red Ensign or the Australian National Flag. It is recommended that private craft wear the Red Ensign in home waters but use the national colours when overseas."

I am not sure which of these two flags visitors to Australia should select as their courtesy flag, but I would guess the red one, as it is what is suggested for private Aussie vessels in home waters.

The Australian flag (blue one); I'm sure the red one is only permitted for real Australians.

Does anyone have any info on flag etiquette for other countries?

One of the biggest variations between countries seems to be the use of national flags for guests/charterers.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

A few things have emerged from this thread.
...
I am not sure which of these two flags visitors to Australia should select as their courtesy flag, but I would guess the red one, as it is what is suggested for private Aussie vessels in home waters.
...

On a PNG registered vessel when visiting Australia, we fly the Australian National Colours as the courtesy.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

What part was incorrect; I didn't see anything wrong in this document but you do have younger eyes than me; please advise

Am I misinterpreting this bit in the document? (see attachment)

I think it is incorrect, as residents of Australia may choose to fly the National Flag or the Australian Red Ensign on privately owned registered small vessels as well, not just unregistered ones.

The new regs were introduced in 1981, so that it why I thought the document must have been written before then.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I am not sure which of these two flags visitors to Australia should select as their courtesy flag, but I would guess the red one, as it is what is suggested for private Aussie vessels in home waters.

Originally Posted by Wotname

The Australian flag (blue one); I'm sure the red one is only permitted for real Australians.

No, it is also the flag flown by merchant ships if registered in an Australian port.

Originally Posted by StuM

On a PNG registered vessel when visiting Australia, we fly the Australian National Colours as the courtesy.

Stu, where did you find this info?

All I can find is this, indicating the Australian Red Ensign is the correct courtesy flag for Australia:
http://cblights.com/cruising/courtesyFlags.pdf

[Seaworthy Lass]

A bit more delving:

These websites show that the Australian Red Ensign is the courtesy flag to use:
Courtesy Flags for a Pacific Crossing
BOAT BOOKS: How to find the courtesy flags for Pacific region countries. Our stock of courtesy flags.

Boat Books Australia sells both the Australian National Flag and the Australian Red Ensign under their "Courtesy Flags" section:
Boat Books Australia

If Aussies are confused about what our courtesy flag is, what hope do visitors have LOL?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Stu, where did you find this info?

All I can find is this, indicating the Australian Red Ensign is the correct courtesy flag for Australia:
http://cblights.com/cruising/courtesyFlags.pdf

I didn't find it anywhere. I didn't say it was correct, I said it was what we did

However, I just did some checking. Probably the definitive source is:

http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/symbol...gs_excerpt.pdf

"The rules for flying flags on non-defence ships are set out in sections 29 and 30 of the Shipping Registration Act 1981 and regulation 22 of the Shipping Registration Regulations. Foreign vessels may, as a courtesy, fl y from the foremast either the Australian National Flag or the
Australian red ensign when berthed in an Australian port. "

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Dave, with this insight you are well on your way to becoming a Australian citizen (but you can remain a British subject as well - if you like).

Since the nationality act Britons are no longer subjects but citizens of the UK !

Dave

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by StuM

I didn't find it anywhere. I didn't say it was correct, I said it was what we did

However, I just did some checking. Probably the definitive source is:

http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/symbol...gs_excerpt.pdf

"The rules for flying flags on non-defence ships are set out in sections 29 and 30 of the Shipping Registration Act 1981 and regulation 22 of the Shipping Registration Regulations. Foreign vessels may, as a courtesy, fl y from the foremast either the Australian National Flag or the
Australian red ensign when berthed in an Australian port. "

Perfect! That makes it really clear.

I was just wading through the Shipping Registration Act 1981 and couldn't find anything.