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Old 12-08-2014, 08:44   #166
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Interesting point, if one accepts the "bunting" that is a Guest flag, then should one fly the maritime ensign or the national flag. In the case of a UK national onboard , both cause etiquette issues.!!
Dave, although the term 'bunting' is a generic term for all flags, wouldn't it be terribly disrespectful to call someone's national flag 'bunting'? When applied in the singular it seems to just mean decorative fabric.

The RYA doesn't refer to the "courtesy Ensign of a charterer's nationality" being worn at the port halyard as "bunting" and I really can't see that it would refer to any national flag this way.

The RYA just seems to make no mention that it is acceptable to display the national flag of a guest on board.

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of course one could fly the St geogres , st andrews or st patricks flags instead, both one is the designation of an "admiral on board" and another is a signal flag. what to do what to do !!!
http://www.yosc.org.uk/flagetiquette3.pdf
The above pdf compiled from several references states that:

"Flags such as St. George’s Cross (for England), St. Andrew’s Cross (for Scotland), and the Welsh Dragon etc. are land flags and must not be flown at sea as they may be confused for signals. E.g., St. Andrew’s Cross could be mistaken for code flag M which means “my vessel is stopped and making no way” – St. Patrick’s Cross could be misinterpreted as code flag V meaning “I require assistance” and St. George’s Flag is the flag of an Admiral.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:48   #167
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Dave, although the term 'bunting' is a generic term for all flags, wouldn't it be terribly disrespectful to call someone's national flag 'bunting'? When applied in the singular it seems to just mean decorative fabric.

The RYA doesn't refer to the "courtesy Ensign of a charterer's nationality" being worn at the port halyard as "bunting" and I really can't see that it would refer to any national flag this way.

The RYA just seems to make no mention that it is acceptable to display the national flag of a guest on board.



http://www.yosc.org.uk/flagetiquette3.pdf
The above pdf compiled from several references states that:

"Flags such as St. George’s Cross (for England), St. Andrew’s Cross (for Scotland), and the Welsh Dragon etc. are land flags and must not be flown at sea as they may be confused for signals. E.g., St. Andrew’s Cross could be mistaken for code flag M which means “my vessel is stopped and making no way” – St. Patrick’s Cross could be misinterpreted as code flag V meaning “I require assistance” and St. George’s Flag is the flag of an Admiral.
I'm not sure I accept the RYA's lack of noting this as being the end all. The Danish flag rules are quite specific. The guests national flag may be flown under the starboard spreader to honor the guest (note this has nothing to do with who is chartering the boat), retiring to port if the starboard i needed for something else.

So in lieu of anything specific that says something different than the Danish flag etiquette, I'll continue to observe those rules.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:13   #168
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

When in Rome...
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Old 12-08-2014, 12:16   #169
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

That's what I said in #80


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Old 12-08-2014, 13:35   #170
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Dave, although the term 'bunting' is a generic term for all flags, wouldn't it be terribly disrespectful to call someone's national flag 'bunting'? When applied in the singular it seems to just mean decorative fabric.

The RYA doesn't refer to the "courtesy Ensign of a charterer's nationality" being worn at the port halyard as "bunting" and I really can't see that it would refer to any national flag this way.

The RYA just seems to make no mention that it is acceptable to display the national flag of a guest on board.
Because flags and ensigns on a boat have specific meaning, whereas "bunting" does not, I tend to use this term. I mean of course no disrespect. personally I am against all forms of irrelevant bunting and other nonsense on a well found yacht. I detest the flying of "pirate" flags especially.

The only bunting I typically have is my RNLI burgee and a seven seas burgee, all of which I fly from the port crosstrees

I find flying the flags of the countries of the crew unusual, though I have been prevailed upon to do so a few times. Half the time , Id have to fly 5 or 6 different flags anyway !!!

but I apologise for offending anyones precious bunting. I think the world would be a better place if we invested somewhat less energy in the whole flags and symbols thing.

dave
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Old 12-08-2014, 13:37   #171
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I'm not sure I accept the RYA's lack of noting this as being the end all. The Danish flag rules are quite specific. The guests national flag may be flown under the starboard spreader to honor the guest (note this has nothing to do with who is chartering the boat), retiring to port if the starboard i needed for something else.

So in lieu of anything specific that says something different than the Danish flag etiquette, I'll continue to observe those rules.
If you are on a danish flagged boat, then you are correct and proper.

Rather like when I skipper an Irish registered boat, I do not lowered my ensign at night as that is not a requirement of the rules of that state. I do so when I skipper a UK registered one of course.


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Old 12-08-2014, 13:50   #172
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Wars in Europe , have been started over less
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We don't need wars, but I've beaten to quarters, cleared for action, had the starboard gun battery loaded and run out. Should you want to strike your colors - I accept the surrender May I have your sword sir!
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Battle of Copenhagen , cough cough, ahem ahem!!!!!!
Yes, the wars were started for even less...
On the seas mainly because Old Good England treated all salty waters as its own dominium, demanding others to obey and conform

The etiquette is mainly matter of tradition and there is more than single maritime tradition around

So I'm putting my man-of-war in carstenb's wake, running out the portside guns, ready to go about and rake Your stern, Dave
Third Battle of Copenhagen can be very different when Baltic states would go to fight for their traditions, not for some nutty continental blockade!

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Old 12-08-2014, 14:02   #173
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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On the seas mainly because Old Good England treated all salty waters as its own dominium, demanding others to obey and conform
Rather like today, its all a factor of having more matériel then ones opponent. if you read your naval history, it took considerable time, resources, improvements in supply chain and gunnery to get Merry England to where it was at the end of the age of Sail.

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Old 12-08-2014, 14:40   #174
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Rather like today, its all a factor of having more matériel then ones opponent.
I remember Duke of York and Albany said something to this effect before outbreak of one of wars against Netherlands


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If you read your naval history, it took considerable time, resources, improvements in supply chain and gunnery to get Merry England to where it was at the end of the age of Sail.

dave
Add to this famous "custom of winning"
And really, the Royal Navy of the age of sail was incredible feat of organisation. Almost unbelievable, but real.
Naval history was one of my main interest as far as from primary school and because of this I learnt also a lot about history of England, its politics, economy and so on, but still I have a feel I'm missing something...
How the not so a big (in numbers, of course) nation could organize such an enormous and orchestrated effort like during Napoleonic wars is almost beyond comprehension...

And... if given a possibility to use a time machine, my first wish would be to see annual West India convoy arriving to the Channel and meeting the awaiting fleet...

Sorry for another thread drift.

Tomasz
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Old 12-08-2014, 14:55   #175
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

Before everyone starts thinking I am fare cannon fodder, I would just like to say I am a recognised minority being cornish and not to be confused with an Englishman


Let the grapples be thrown and commence boarding


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Old 12-08-2014, 15:02   #176
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Before everyone starts thinking I am fare cannon fodder, I would just like to say I am a recognised minority being cornish and not to be confused with an Englishman
The burning question is: Do Cornishmen fly guest courtesy Ensigns and if so, where?
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Old 12-08-2014, 15:27   #177
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

Well that might depend if I was in Rome........ Or Denmark !
But I don't think I would be happy about St Pirans being called bunting, so I think I would have my presence aboard remain enormous




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Old 12-08-2014, 15:35   #178
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

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Before everyone starts thinking I am fare cannon fodder, I would just like to say I am a recognised minority being cornish and not to be confused with an Englishman


Let the grapples be thrown and commence boarding
I do remember something about Cornishmen constituting unproportionally numerous (and able) part of Royal Navy crews...
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Old 12-08-2014, 15:41   #179
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

We were privateers, my local scoundrels were known as the Fowey gallants and when not employed by the crown generally robbed as many merchant ships going up the channel as possible


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Old 12-08-2014, 15:42   #180
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question

Fowey Gallants
The Fowey Gallants or the ‘Gallants’ of Fowey, was group of privateers and pirates who operated out of the port of Fowey, in Cornwall, during the Hundred Years' War in the 14th and 15th centuries.

The port was given licences to attack and seize French vessels in the English Channel, following the assistance the port had given during the Siege of Calais and the Battle of Agincourt. Many foreign vessels and some English vessels were seized and these activities became very profitable for the corrupt port. Notable privateers included Mark Mixtow, who was a licensed privateer with a flotilla of three ships, the Dutch pirate Hankyn Seelander was given a privateers licence by The Crown in 1442 and tasked with patrolling the coast. Others involved in piracy included John Trevelyn, Thomas Tregarthen, Nicholas Carminow and Sir Hugh Courtenay owner of the Boconnoc estate. John Wilcock's ship Barbara, seized fifteen ships in two weeks in 1469.

Following peace with France, the piracy continued. Edward IV asked the “willing men from Dartmouth” to stop the piracy. A meeting was arranged in Lostwithiel and while the Gallants were there, their ships were seized and the harbour chain removed. Several pirates were hanged.[1][2]






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