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Old 06-04-2012, 09:28   #1
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First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

St. Augustine Pilot Program, the first anchoring violation citation has been issued … | Sandy's St. Augustine
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Old 06-04-2012, 09:53   #2
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

Interesting, thanks for the info. Hope to see a court ruling in boater's favor sometime in the future!
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:02   #3
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

It'll definitely be interesting to see what happens!
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:30   #4
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

I read the article completely, and think that if liveaboard guys such as this stand in the way of excellent installations of mooring fields like the ones in St.Augustine and Titusville, then other cities will be reluctant to do the same installations. While anchoring out may be the choice of those that never move their boats, the mooring provide very good security when us cruisers (those of us that actually move our boats from place to place) pass through, especially during bad weather when a marina seems too expensive and a mooring will give you a safe place to weather the weather. As to insurance, I am fully in favor of requiring at least liablity on every boat out there. I have seen the worst of the worst in seamanship traveling the trip between New England and the Bahamas, and would hate to be in a situation where a dragging or poorly operated boat hits me and the owner has no insurance. I would probably be arrested for assault or worse. St. Augustine isn't the backwater, it is a heavily used harbor and the only way to keep unseaworthy boats in check is to have regulations. We have seen too many derilict boats along the intercoastal in towns such as St Augustine, Fort Pierce and Lake Worth, more than any other towns. Instead of chastising St Augustine, if I was a livaboard there, I would put my effort into cleaning up the neighborhood, because that is the core reason that such things are enacted.
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:56   #5
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

Completely agree with the article writer.
I would like to anchor there, and elsewhere.
Do not want to be forced to moor or dock somewhere and then sign a waiver releasing them from liability.
I trust my anchors, and my anchoring ability.
Sheeple are too brainwashed into thinking insurance will help. They may. But, they may not.
Someone with insurance could damage you - and insurance may not pay. Someone without insurance may pay.
OverandOverandOVer regulation is not the answer - to anything.
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:58   #6
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

First of all, the citation has nothing to do with the mooring field in St. Augustine. It was issued on the other side of town in the San Sabastian River. It has to do with the Pilot Program and it's subsequent anchoring restrictions. Moreover, I too think the mooring field is a great asset to St. Augustine's harbor. Our currents are very strong and anchoring can be very tricky. I personally would gladly pick up a mooring if I was passing thru our area. $20 for that much peace of mind? Well worth it. I think the issue here is whether or not boaters are allowed a choice. Many, many skilled sailors are responsible, know how to anchor properly and prefer to anchor on their own. I believe that they should be allowed that choice. There are plenty of regs on the books to get rid of derelict boats, why not enforce them? I don't think burdening an overburdened law enforcement entity (who is clearly reluctant to participate), is a smart policy. Obviously, the majority of us boaters don't want the derelicts around. On the other hand, as long as we choose safe anchoring practices, we should not be restricted. How many people would drive to a resort town to spend money if they were told they all HAD to stay in the government run hotel? that hotel may be very nice, practical and safe, but people want & deserve a choice. Personally, I believe we all need to really re-think this whole thing and come up with ideas that are much less divisive and polarizing. This "argument" is getting us nowhere as a whole. The current atmosphere is promoting a childish and completely unnecessary "us against them" attitude that's not really conducive to solving anything. Personally, I dont have any quick answers or fixes, but maybe if we all put our heads together we can come up with a better idea than the current Pilot Programs.
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:47   #7
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

Very interesting indeed.

Really, while some of the ordinance seems to be a pain in the butt it doesn't seem completely egregious with one exception. I can not believe the requirement to release the city from all liability. If you pay to use a mooring, there is an expectation that it will be properly maintained and the condition of the mooring monitored. Oh well. I suppose the good news is that it has long been found in the US courts that you cannot waive liability in case of negligence. So if the the City fails to maintain the moorings and one fails causing damage, the boat owner will eventually win in court. The sucky part is they will win after a ling drawn out and expensive legal battle.
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:57   #8
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

I didn't see anything in the article about what specifically the ticket was for. What part of the ordinance was given as to the reason of the ticket. Sounds like maybe there is also for people history going on.
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Old 06-04-2012, 13:06   #9
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

Let's try to NOT mix the apples with the oranges with the poison pills. ANY municipality can get the permits and install mooring fields. And mooring fields are great conveniences for most boaters.

BUT we do NOT need Pilot Program rules and regs that attempt to outlaw established anchoring protocols. Since most municipal mooring fields have taken over the best anchoring sites, that's a big enough advantage already for the municipality AND for those who choose to ante up for a mooring.

The poison pills are the small print rules encouraged by the PilotProgram that make anchoring a hardship and the boating lifestyle over-regulated.

You can park in a municipal parking garage for a fee. You can park on most municipal streets for nothing.
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Old 06-04-2012, 13:10   #10
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

"I can not believe the requirement to release the city from all liability. "
That's typical English commonlaw: The sovereign can do no wrong, and cannot be sued the way that subjects can be. Putting in a liability release only affirms existing common law. (Except, of course, St.A. is in Florida, where the commonlaw comes from SPANISH background, not English. Florida's always got special excuses, being as it wasn't originally part of the US.)
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Old 06-04-2012, 13:20   #11
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

An enormous flaw in the whole Pilot Program idea, is the legislative vs. enforcement aspect. As "Mayor Sandy" states in her blog:
"The statute gives the authority of the Florida State Legislature over to Florida State Law Enforcement. According to the State Constitution, the power of the legislature is vested in the legislature alone. This authority cannot be apportioned in whole or in part to any other entity. Law enforcement does not set the standards of law in this country."
In other words, the City of St. Augustine, of it's own accord, has deemed itself able to hand over the power of legislating laws from the elected legislative officials to it's law enforcement? Law enforcement is just that, they enforce laws. Is anyone else seeing a HUGE and very basic flaw in their thinking??
Of course when you really start breaking down how poorly this Pilot Program was planned, as a few other people have mentioned and as "Mayor Sandy" has stated:
"sign a contract which releases the city from all damages to my vessel even in the case of the City’s negligence."
The City coerces us to the mooring field, but the wont be responsible? REALLY??
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Old 06-04-2012, 13:25   #12
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

As a CLOD in St Augustine that hopes to launch my new boat next year, I'm keeping an eye on these rules. At the moment, its $100 a month to keep a boat on a mooring in Salt Run if you're not living aboard on a yearly lease. Still there are people "storing" boats outside the mooring field not willing to pay the $100. It seems to me if you have a half decent boat $100 is a pretty good deal compared to purchasing and maintaining a proper mooring. There is talk the city is losing money on the mooring field and increasing rates. There are a shocking amount of boats literally being scrapped around here as the keels at 65 cents per pound are worth more than the boat itself. Ad the winches, etc all boats have some gear worth something on EBAY and the amount of boats is falling. I suppose that is what a lot of homeowners want.

I have a view of the South City field from my living room and the south "anchorage" from my driveway. Don't seem to be many guys yet following the 30 day rule yet!

Also there is a guy anchored pretty much square in the Salt Run channel at the moment.

There basically is enough space for one boat there to comply with the new rules. I know he works ashore part-time and could certainly afford the modest mooring fee. When Boot Key charges $20 per day for dinghy dockage there is more than cause for alarm, but then you can liveaboard or "store" a boat at a reasonable cost it seems perhaps best to comply or move on. If you're truly benefiting the community as the argument goes that extra less than $200 a month is workable in your budget. If you're a grifter/ derelict sell you boat for the lead.

I can see the slippery slope fees will increase, etc and will just have to get out of hand. I for one as a local tax payer will LOUDLY encourage the city to get OUT of the mooring business if they are not able to provide the moorings on a long term basis at a reasonable price. I think there are many other local home/boatowners that will also be doing that as well.

Cheers,
Jeff
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Old 06-04-2012, 14:42   #13
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

lambchop, I really don't want to study Florida's quaint ways, but in the rest of the US? By and large, unless there's some law saying otherwise, any lawmaking body, any administrative body, can delegate their lawful powers to pretty much anyone else.

that's the old argument that the IRS is illegal and nothing they say is law, because only Congress has the right to raise taxes. Well, no, all the governments and courts agree that if Congress has the right to raise taxes, they can appoint someone else to deal with the details. Such as, the IRS.

I'd be surprised if Florida went contrary to that nearly universal standing. Not shocked, just surprised. Mayor Sandy's article covered a lot of ground, but it also meanders a lot.
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Old 06-04-2012, 14:44   #14
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

It's hard to figure out where I stand on this one. As much as I am against government intrusion into our lives I still think this program is good. St. Augustine Muni marina ranks very high in both facilities and personnel. $20 a day is very little considering the great showers and you get the free use of dingy dock, pump-out, trash disposal and water. My apologies if this sounds harsh but if you haven't moved in 30 days you aren't a cruiser, you are a live-aboard. Not that that"s a bad thing but it is entirely different than someone who wants to drop the hook to say overnight or rest up for a few days. The ground tackle on most boats is not designed as a permanent mooring. As a matter of full disclosure, I have been in St. Augustine in a slip and on a mooring for the winter.
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Old 06-04-2012, 15:18   #15
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Re: First anchoring violation citation issued in St. Augustine

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmackay View Post
It's hard to figure out where I stand on this one. As much as I am against government intrusion into our lives I still think this program is good. St. Augustine Muni marina ranks very high in both facilities and personnel. $20 a day is very little considering the great showers and you get the free use of dingy dock, pump-out, trash disposal and water. My apologies if this sounds harsh but if you haven't moved in 30 days you aren't a cruiser, you are a live-aboard. Not that that"s a bad thing but it is entirely different than someone who wants to drop the hook to say overnight or rest up for a few days. The ground tackle on most boats is not designed as a permanent mooring. As a matter of full disclosure, I have been in St. Augustine in a slip and on a mooring for the winter.
Those of us that stay longer than 30 days are not cruisers? were slow crusers!

I anchored my boat with 2 anchores down and bused it all over Turkey for 45 days- i wonder what i am???
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