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Old 22-03-2012, 23:29   #46
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

Syria, Russia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, North Korea ... would the hassle to reward ratio bring these down a bit lower than some other countries? Not that I want to unfairly bash anyone, mind you! In terms of countries going in the wrong direction, would Italy's proposed taxes and Argentina's tight controls count against them?
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Old 23-03-2012, 08:28   #47
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Conditions are slowly changing in Indonesia as this latest intelligence report suggests.


“The Indonesian archipelago stretches over 2500 kilometers west to east and is not only the hand that cups south-east Asia and its waters, but also one of the most fascinating cruising destinations on the planet. Unfortunately, it is equally difficult to enter and near impossible to charter there.
A recent initiative by the Indonesian government
In consultation with indo yacht support and supported by Asia-Pacific super yachts is set to change that radically. While not eliminating bribery, it should reduce it to tens of dollars and the requirement to post a bond or insure against a bond of a considerable percentage of the yacht’s value has disappeared entirely. This telegraphs the intentions within the Indonesian
Government to encourage super yacht maritime tourism, and can only have a positive effect on the number of yachts cruising these waters. “
Having just spent several weeks in Indonesia (West Kalimantan to Sumatra, Lingga Islands to Batam) I can assure everyone that there are certainly no problems attaining a cruising permit and tourist visa to cruise in Indonesia. Never bothered once by Indonesia Coast Guard, Police or any other authourity and only once had to produce a passport when we dinghied in to one of the islands. Beautiful, lots of places to see and only saw one other sailboat during our entire time in Indonesian waters. Never paid or was asked for a bribe once although we did buy coffee a couple of times.

Navigational aides are limited or nonexistant unless you count sticks placed aong the edges of bars but almost everyone is willing to give guidance or help where they can. Do not look for marinas or other amenities so you have to come prepared with ships spares.

No entitlements here but a great place to visit and cruise.
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Old 23-03-2012, 16:30   #48
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

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What interests me is: ‘whether the leading counties in yachting (NA and Europe) are going in the right direction of pleasure craft management?’

Having cruised in those waters since the 80’s….is this evolution to tight management a good thing and does it make us happier sailors?
The term "entitlement" doesn't spring to mind as having to do with this topic. But, I'm not certain that the direction of pleasure craft management in NA and Europe is entirely negative or entirely positive. I personally do not like to give up freedom just for the sake of safety, especially when it concerns my own personal safety. For example, some are throwing around the idea of mandatory wear of PFDs, which to me is simply unacceptable. On the other hand, I'm not against the government charting our waters accurately, producing better and better weather forecasting, maintaining buoys and lighthouses, or creating reduced wake and no-speeding zones in order to protect the environment, wildlife, and other boaters. So, once again, I am sorry it is not black and white. As in most things, there are many shades of gray on this. Some management is good, some is bad, and some is smart and some is dumb.

I'm not sure the third world is immune from this at all--in fact just the opposite. Anyone who has dealt with boating bureacracy in someplace like Panama, where it might take all day to clear into the country, after visiting numerous offices, and paying numerous high fees, might be much happier with the thirty seconds of questions that are often all that are required for a boater returning to the USA. Yes, in the third world there are often "other ways" to deal with the bureacracy, but it is often Byzantine in its complexity.
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Old 23-03-2012, 18:01   #49
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

I have spent 2 seasons, over 12 months in total cruising Malaysia, Thai and I ndonesian waters. Never had any problems if you get advice beforehand about local expectations and customs.

The yacht is based in Langkawi, Malaysia, the easiest and cheapest country to check in and out from, in the world, that I have ever visited.

Nav aids are in place and mostly working.

Indonesians leave you alone and are very polite and friendly. Always expect to pay a small extra fee for speedy, efficient, government services! Or wait a day for free service?

I have visited about 30 countries world wide, including China and the USA, SE Asia has been the easiest.

The cruising there is wonderful and so cheap, Thailand is the most entertaining, anything goes!!

Good old Australia, only place I have been fined by local water police for using a vacant mooring in Rottnest island in a field of vacant moorings after a 3 day solo passage. Speed boat got me within 3 minutes of stopping. No explanation, about having to prebook the mooring online, just wrote out the ticket and gave it to me with only a few words of abuse!!!

I really enjoy Indonesia and will back there for another 6 months in June 2012.

Fair winds from Keith.
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Old 23-03-2012, 19:29   #50
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
The term "entitlement" doesn't spring to mind as having to do with this topic. But, I'm not certain that the direction of pleasure craft management in NA and Europe is entirely negative or entirely positive. I personally do not like to give up freedom just for the sake of safety, especially when it concerns my own personal safety. For example, some are throwing around the idea of mandatory wear of PFDs, which to me is simply unacceptable. On the other hand, I'm not against the government charting our waters accurately, producing better and better weather forecasting, maintaining buoys and lighthouses, or creating reduced wake and no-speeding zones in order to protect the environment, wildlife, and other boaters. So, once again, I am sorry it is not black and white. As in most things, there are many shades of gray on this. Some management is good, some is bad, and some is smart and some is dumb.

I'm not sure the third world is immune from this at all--in fact just the opposite. Anyone who has dealt with boating bureacracy in someplace like Panama, where it might take all day to clear into the country, after visiting numerous offices, and paying numerous high fees, might be much happier with the thirty seconds of questions that are often all that are required for a boater returning to the USA. Yes, in the third world there are often "other ways" to deal with the bureacracy, but it is often Byzantine in its complexity.
I agree, I think entitlement was a bad choice of word to hang this discussion on.

Maybe a better word is “expectation”…?

Again I am not saying that one area is better than another, just different in the way I see cruisers being treated.

To generalize:
In developing areas, cruisers are seen as an asset…. while in developed locations they are managed more as a nuisance the way surfmachine illustrates.

Perhaps it is time to tell the developed yachting industry that they have lost the plot in servicing the cruising dream
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Old 23-03-2012, 21:31   #51
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

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What's a third world country?

What is it we are supposed to be discussing? A comparison of rules regulations and red tape by country?

I see some train wrecks coming...

A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY??? We will soon be living in one. Our big government wants to borrow its way out of debt.
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Old 23-03-2012, 21:57   #52
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

Let's get back to the original posters topic please.
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Old 24-03-2012, 07:01   #53
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

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In developing areas, cruisers are seen as an asset…. while in developed locations they are managed more as a nuisance the way surfmachine illustrates.
Interesting generalization, but again I think the statement applies some places and doesn't other places. For example, Annapolis is the sailing capital of America, very developed, very crowded, yet has a very friendly harbor I think. The harbormaster and various assistants seem to be knowledgeable boaters who really try to help out cruisers, while at the same time maintaing a safe and organized harbor with a ton of boating going on. Hundreds of local marine businesses cater to a boater's every want, yet in the midst of all this I have been treated to exceptional service. Like the engine mechanic in an outboard shop who helped me out with the most enormous pair of snap ring pliers I had ever seen, needed to fix an odd problem in the transmission on my diesel, and after 15 or 20 minutes of fooling around with this problem declined my offer of payment--he said he found the problem interesting. Other examples that come to mind: the free dockage offered to visitors in various communities in the USA, the many times I have witnessed harbormasters in New England rescuing and towing boats for no charge, and the infrastructure that is still maintained all over the country even where there is no possible commercial use of the waterway. I'm always amazed at the tiny creeks that have buoyed and marked channels, all paid for with tax dollars.

And, on the other side of the coin the Bahamas has a $300 entrance fee, though once you get through that they don't hassle you and they do collect the money with a big smile! But aids to navigation--forget about em. Point being, as I have been saying, the generalization doesn't hold.
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Old 24-03-2012, 11:46   #54
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

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Interesting generalization, ...... Point being, as I have been saying, the generalization doesn't hold.
Only if you don’t allow any exceptions…
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Old 24-03-2012, 19:51   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfmachine
I have spent 2 seasons, over 12 months in total cruising Malaysia, Thai and I ndonesian waters. Never had any problems if you get advice beforehand about local expectations and customs.

The yacht is based in Langkawi, Malaysia, the easiest and cheapest country to check in and out from, in the world, that I have ever visited.

Nav aids are in place and mostly working.

Indonesians leave you alone and are very polite and friendly. Always expect to pay a small extra fee for speedy, efficient, government services! Or wait a day for free service?

I have visited about 30 countries world wide, including China and the USA, SE Asia has been the easiest.

The cruising there is wonderful and so cheap, Thailand is the most entertaining, anything goes!!

Good old Australia, only place I have been fined by local water police for using a vacant mooring in Rottnest island in a field of vacant moorings after a 3 day solo passage. Speed boat got me within 3 minutes of stopping. No explanation, about having to prebook the mooring online, just wrote out the ticket and gave it to me with only a few words of abuse!!!

I really enjoy Indonesia and will back there for another 6 months in June 2012.

Fair winds from Keith.
Keith and Pelagic - your asian cruising permits are hereby immediatly revoked for violations of the non-disclosure clause. Please move your boats immediately to the carribean where you are banished to hang out with the parrot head wannbes for a period not less than 6 months. In addition your are sentenced to listen to "Margaritaville" no less then 2,000 times.

For everyone else with a boat, asia is really tough. And scary. And we got pirates in the mallaca straits, and we got corrupt government officials and they hang you for graffiti and there are headhunters in borneo and they kidnap tourists in the philippines and the women will hypnotize you and steal all your money.

Seriously, go to the carribean...
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Old 24-03-2012, 19:57   #56
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Re: Entitlement as a Cruiser

Yeah but we have pythons in the keys. Don't come here. You never know what a python is thinking.
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