Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-12-2013, 11:42   #16
Registered User
 
S/V Alchemy's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto
Boat: Custom 41' Steel Pilothouse Cutter
Posts: 4,576
Re: Dual Citizenship, where to register, and how that effects travel in the Med?

I have dual Canadian and UK citizenship, although the UK passport is currently expired. My Canadian-built boat is Canadian-flagged and I have been told to keep it that way and to basically not travel under my UK passport as it will cause knock-on effects. I have been also told, however, that if I put the boat on the hard in the UK over a winter (for instance) to do maintainence, and wish to put my kid in school for a term, I should produce the UK passport and list the boat as my residence...but remember to get out before 180 days have passed!

So it's indeed a tricky path. Given you are UK citizens being "stunt Australians" for the purposes of boat voyaging, perhaps the easiest path is to go all Australian as boaters, and only resort to using the UK passports if you are in a non-European spot that has a British Consulate but no Australian equivalent. That's the case for me as a Canadian, with a Canadian-flagged boat...it would be stupid and expensive to fly the Red Duster and the sole advantage of having the UK passport without the residency requirement is that I get to use the green line at the European airports on occasion, as I'm too old to get called up if Britain fights Argentina again (Argentina being a good example of a place I wouldn't opt to fly a Red Duster!)
__________________

__________________
Can't sleep? Read www.alchemy2009.blogspot.com for fast relief. Can't read? Avoid www.volumesofsalt.blogspot.com, because it's just personal reviews of sea books.
S/V Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2013, 16:08   #17
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Currently in Spain
Boat: Hanse 385
Posts: 653
Re: Dual Citizenship, where to register, and how that effects travel in the Med?

"Given you are UK citizens being "stunt Australians" for the purposes of boat voyaging"

I wouldn't say I am. I've been living in Australia for over 5 years and plan to return here for many more. We have dual citizenship but in terms of our lives, tax, work, where we live, I'd class myself as Australian way over English now.

If showing a UK passport is going to confuse matters though, that's another issue. From what I'm reading here as long as I show my Oz passport + Oz tax / bills / other 'life' documentation it shouldn't matter if I use my Uk passport to get in.

On the other hand if I did just use my Oz passport to keep things simple does that effect how long we can stay in the EU? I've been reading on this and again am confused. Some threads say 90 days? Others 180 days. What are the rules for Ozzy cruisers moving through the Med?

Many thanks again for all the advice by the way. Don't know what I'd do without this forum!

Regards,
Simon
__________________

__________________
simonpickard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2013, 10:32   #18
Registered User
 
S/V Alchemy's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto
Boat: Custom 41' Steel Pilothouse Cutter
Posts: 4,576
Re: Dual Citizenship, where to register, and how that effects travel in the Med?

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpickard View Post
"Given you are UK citizens being "stunt Australians" for the purposes of boat voyaging"

I wouldn't say I am. I've been living in Australia for over 5 years and plan to return here for many more. We have dual citizenship but in terms of our lives, tax, work, where we live, I'd class myself as Australian way over English now.

If showing a UK passport is going to confuse matters though, that's another issue. From what I'm reading here as long as I show my Oz passport + Oz tax / bills / other 'life' documentation it shouldn't matter if I use my Uk passport to get in.

On the other hand if I did just use my Oz passport to keep things simple does that effect how long we can stay in the EU? I've been reading on this and again am confused. Some threads say 90 days? Others 180 days. What are the rules for Ozzy cruisers moving through the Med?

Many thanks again for all the advice by the way. Don't know what I'd do without this forum!

Regards,
Simon
My terminology was in no way a slur on your new status, but more a ventured opinion on how you might appear to European officialdom: as flying under a flag of convenience.

If you go "all Oz" in terms of boat registry and the passport under which you enter EU jurisdiction, which is probably preferable and is the path of least resistance, then you'll need to examine on a case-by-case basis what the rules are. It could be as simple as 179 days in the UK, buggering off to Norway for a week, and then back to the UK for a reset clock...but I don't personally know, except that it's somewhat complicated. Check here as a good start.

The point is that you have X number of days in a 365-day run before you are deemed to have "imported" the boat. So if you register as a UK vessel, you pay VAT. If you overstay X number of days, you pay VAT. The only way to get around this is to leave to a sufficiently non-EU place for the regulatory amount of time to obtain a reset of the "visitor's" clock. There seems to be very little in the way of other options, although I've heard of a few involving north-south runs trans-Med to North Africa and back, but that seems a touch dodgy.

The alternative, of course, is staying on your own boat until you have to leave, flying back and chartering, and then flying back to the boat, I suppose! But look at the state of the EU: they really, really want that VAT if they can get it, and they don't like liveaboards much to begin with.
__________________
Can't sleep? Read www.alchemy2009.blogspot.com for fast relief. Can't read? Avoid www.volumesofsalt.blogspot.com, because it's just personal reviews of sea books.
S/V Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2013, 18:55   #19
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post

My terminology was in no way a slur on your new status, but more a ventured opinion on how you might appear to European officialdom: as flying under a flag of convenience.

If you go "all Oz" in terms of boat registry and the passport under which you enter EU jurisdiction, which is probably preferable and is the path of least resistance, then you'll need to examine on a case-by-case basis what the rules are. It could be as simple as 179 days in the UK, buggering off to Norway for a week, and then back to the UK for a reset clock...but I don't personally know, except that it's somewhat complicated. Check here as a good start.

The point is that you have X number of days in a 365-day run before you are deemed to have "imported" the boat. So if you register as a UK vessel, you pay VAT. If you overstay X number of days, you pay VAT. The only way to get around this is to leave to a sufficiently non-EU place for the regulatory amount of time to obtain a reset of the "visitor's" clock. There seems to be very little in the way of other options, although I've heard of a few involving north-south runs trans-Med to North Africa and back, but that seems a touch dodgy.

The alternative, of course, is staying on your own boat until you have to leave, flying back and chartering, and then flying back to the boat, I suppose! But look at the state of the EU: they really, really want that VAT if they can get it, and they don't like liveaboards much to begin with.
I don't know where this , quite frankly fiction , comes from

Lets separate two things , you the person and secondly the boat , the two are not connected in any way under EU law

Lets take the simpler one first, the boat.

If the " beneficial owner", and that's the term used in the Directive , is not a tax resident of the EU, then that boat ( irrespective of its flag ) is entitled to 18 months VAT free presence in the EU. That period can be extended repeatedly by in effective taking the boat out of " the customs union of the EU " for a day , ( with proof , say a foreign marina bill etc )

If you are a EU tax resident , you will generally have to pay the VAT . If the boat is wrapped up in a EU company, it will be VAT registered and hence free of Vat , but other issues arise here.

That's it. The EU loves boats.

now the person

If you are travelling on a EU passport , you are not subject to any controls on length of stay or work in EU countries , other then whatever rules apply to nationals of that country

If you are travelling on an non EU passport , and you are within the Schengen Area , then you have a total of 90 days in an 180 day period , then you must leave the Schengen Area for in 90 days. This has nothing to do with the boat. It can stay

Note that several countries , particular NZ and Australia has specific bi-lateral tourist visa agreements with individual EU countries that predate Schengen and allow longer stays in certain countries


Citizenship , or passports do not determine tax residency.

As for " state of the EU " let me tell you sir as of 2012 statistics the EU has the largest GDP of any economic area in the world , it's the top dog . It's customary for those that receive their news from the likes of Fox to perceive otherwise , or to assume that the woes of Greece are reflected elsewhere. It is of course nonsense . They only want the VAT if it is legally due . Nothing else

In the OPs case he's fully entitles to buy the boat VAT free and make use of the reliefs that are available. The documents I suggested are merely a help in case his status is queried , which is unlikely

Compared to the US , and elsewhere. The EU is a bureaucratic paradise for boats. That's why its by far the Worlds Largest sailboat market by far . Welcome to the continent of sailors.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2013, 19:09   #20
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post

If legal experts and case law is lacking, that does suggest a gray area at least in practical terms. We can debate if talking to a lawyer would be helpful but I would think a lawyer would still be better able to provide guideance.

I agree, the odds of being caught are probalby low but the potential cost if you are caught up with a busy body official is high both in monetary terms and hassle if they impound your boat.

I may have misspoke. I never thought Portugal would collect VAT for the UK. I'm not sure if this is the case but would Portugual if they found a non-VAT paid boat owned by a UK citizen be in a position to collect the Portugues VAT if the owner can't produce proof the UK VAT was paid? (while its a bit different with a boat, for comparison, if a UK citizen bought a TV in a Portugues store, I assume they would pay Portugues VAT on the TV.)
If the UK owner with a UK registered boat , which has some proof of being" habitually " kept in the UK , could not satisfy other EU authorities as to its VAT status , then No , another EU cannot collect the VAT ( unless by specific request by the UK revenue ) . The VAT issue m if any , is a matter between the owner and the UK Revenue authorities.

While it is repeatedly mentioned , there is NO legal requirement to " prove" the VAT status of a properly registered EU yacht. In fact because of the way VAT is collected and reported on , there is in fact no such thing as " proof of VAT". ( all you can carry is some supporting documents) . Most VAT issues in the EU have resulted from boat overstays or incorrect or missing registration documentation.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2013, 19:23   #21
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Currently in Spain
Boat: Hanse 385
Posts: 653
Re: Dual Citizenship, where to register, and how that effects travel in the Med?

Many thanks for your advice Dave, and others of course, this thread has been of great help to me!

Happy new year!
__________________
simonpickard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2014, 18:24   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Verona
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 25
Re: Dual Citizenship, where to register, and how that effects travel in the Med?

So how did it work for the OP?

I have a similar situation, so maybe the OP or others can give some advice.
My wife is Japanese and can prove she is a tax resident of Japan.

If she buys a VAT-unpaid used boat in EU and registers it in Japan, I think the 18-month rule of Tempoary Import should apply, so we will have the time to leisurely sail out of the EU.

However my question is: how do we ask for Temporary Import of a boat that is already in EU waters?

Thanks for any input.
__________________
lorenzoSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2014, 18:34   #23
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Dual Citizenship, where to register, and how that effects travel in the Med?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorenzoSF View Post
So how did it work for the OP?

I have a similar situation, so maybe the OP or others can give some advice.
My wife is Japanese and can prove she is a tax resident of Japan.

If she buys a VAT-unpaid used boat in EU and registers it in Japan, I think the 18-month rule of Tempoary Import should apply, so we will have the time to leisurely sail out of the EU.

However my question is: how do we ask for Temporary Import of a boat that is already in EU waters?

Thanks for any input.
You don't ask. You are merely entitled to it. So you buy your vat unpaid boat and as you are tax resident elsewhere you just make use of the 18 month excemption

Note the flag of the boat doesn't matter , it can be EU flagged or not. VAT pays no attention to flag state.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2014, 18:41   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Verona
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 25
Re: Dual Citizenship, where to register, and how that effects travel in the Med?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You don't ask. You are merely entitled to it. So you buy your vat unpaid boat and as you are tax resident elsewhere you just make use of the 18 month excemption

Note the flag of the boat doesn't matter , it can be EU flagged or not. VAT pays no attention to flag state.

Dave
Well, but in order to buy VAT-unpaid (which of course means from a charter company that has bought the boat as a business asset) don't I need to provide some documentation?
Maybe to the selling company so they don't get asked for VAT by the gov?
Or doesn't someone need to officially "export" the boat?
__________________
lorenzoSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2014, 18:59   #25
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Dual Citizenship, where to register, and how that effects travel in the Med?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorenzoSF View Post
Well, but in order to buy VAT-unpaid (which of course means from a charter company that has bought the boat as a business asset) don't I need to provide some documentation?
Maybe to the selling company so they don't get asked for VAT by the gov?
Or doesn't someone need to officially "export" the boat?
You merely have to complete the boat sale outside the EU. , ie they invoice you in Australia without VAT ( completely legal ). Some companies may ask you to deposit the VAT in ESCROW or directly with them , until you export the boat , ie get customs to stamp you out , then you'll have to recover the VAT retrospectively, then you can renter to claim TIR.

It varies from seller to seller.

The seller does not remit Vat To the gov on a per sale by sale basis anyway.

Dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.