Drifting fishermen

[StuM]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Assuming, and that is a big assumption, this is in court it needs to be noted that Admiralty Courts are not like courts for things that happen on dirt. There is not really a guilty/not guilty result. Blame is assigned on a percent basis.

Absolutely correct. It should never get to court unless both parties do the wrong thing. All it takes is for either one to take appropriate action at the appropriate time and there will be no collision.

Initially, the fishing boat should take appropriate action.

If it fails to do so the onus is then on the sailing vessel to take appropriate avoidance action. But only once it is apparent that the fishing boat is not doing so.

[markpierce]

While racing, you change course 70 degrees just to hassle a motorboat?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by markpierce

While racing, you change course 70 degrees just to hassle a motorboat?

Assumption, milud. No facts adduced to establish intention.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by StuM

Assumption, milud. No facts adduced to establish intention.

You weren't there. Fortunately, the catamaran, moving much faster than my boat, changed course to avoid me.

[Shenandoah52]

Originally Posted by StuM

Initially, the fishing boat should take appropriate action.

Ok, here's what I'm not getting... a drifting fishing boat is supposed to move out of the way of a sailboat if the fishing boat sees a sailboat heading its' way?

I not getting that. I am however fully aware that a trolling fishing boat has to give way, but a trolling boat has maneuverability where a drifting fishing boat is not underway.

How often in the real world would it happen that a guy drift fishing would move out of the way of sailboat coming at them. I've never done that while fishing and I don't know anyone who has.

(Fwiw, I misspoke in an above post. I towed that HH from from Marina Pacifica to a private dock in Alamitos Bay. That doesn't matter to anyone but me. Sometimes I type too fast.)

[StuM]

Originally Posted by markpierce

You weren't there. Fortunately, the catamaran, moving much faster than my boat, changed course to avoid me.

No, I wasn't. But it certainly looks as though they are gybing downwind under an assymetric spinnaker as opposed to the boats in the distance that are running under symmetric spinnakers. If that is the case, they will by necessity be zig-zagging either side of the lay line to make best VMG.

[Sojourner]

As I've said a few times, I don't believe many if not most boaters we encounter know let alone understand the nuances of the COLREGS, and so the prudent course of action is to treat them accordingly. I don't worry about the big guys and pro captains out there, but the little local fishermen and sportsmen in runabouts? I would be shocked if the term COLREG even raised a flicker of recognition. So right or wrong, I always adjust course to get out of their way. It's my home, and I ain't in that much of a hurry.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Shenandoah52

Ok, here's what I'm not getting... a drifting fishing boat is supposed to move out of the way of a sailboat if the fishing boat sees a sailboat heading its' way?

Yes. Drifting and fishing are irrelevant. They are a powerboat underway and Rule 18 applies.

I not getting that. I am however fully aware that a trolling fishing boat has to give way, but a trolling boat has maneuverability where a drifting fishing boat is not underway.

Don't confuse "underway" with "making way". A drifting boat is underway even if not "making way".
Underway is "not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground."

Essentially, making way is moving through the water. Whether a drifting boat being driven by a strong wind is making way is a moot point The term is used, but not defined in COLREGs

The drifting fishing boat only has limited maneuverability by their own choice. They can rectify that rapidly.
That choice doesn't give them any special privilege.

How often in the real world would it happen that a guy drift fishing would move out of the way of sailboat coming at them. I've never done that while fishing and I don't know anyone who has.

The first implicit "rule" of seamanship is to avoid getting into a situation where a "risk of collision" exists.

Common courtesy frequently dictates that the skipper of the sailboat making way says "I've got plenty of room and that guy is drift fishing so I'll give him a wide berth". That doesn't alter the requirements once the risk of collision exits.
Common sense even more frequently dictates that the skipper of the sailboat says "I bet that idiot drifting in the middle in the harbour hasn't got a clue about COLREGs so I'll stay well clear of him".

Common courtesy should also dictate that the skipper of the fishing boat says "Oh-oh. Looks like I am the way of that boat coming towards me guess I'd better move". But that is less common.

What if the sailboat is a close hauled 200ft "tall ship" bearing down on you? Would that alter your perception?
How about if it is a 5000t tanker instead of a sailboat?

[Shenandoah52]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

..but the little local fishermen and sportsmen in runabouts? I would be shocked if the term COLREG even raised a flicker of recognition.

This is so true. I was one of those 'local fisherman'. In a 28' sportfisher. You get so accustomed to just going out in your boat and enjoying the day the thought of someone in a sailboat not knowing that a collision would make everyone the loser doesn't even cross your mind. You expect the skipper of the sailboat to have some common sense. Most do. Most experienced powerboat skippers absolutely don't want a collision.

I was lucky enough to do my fishing in the ocean where things are wide open and most of the time there was so much room nobody had to worry too much about collisions. In the bays it was a different story. Powerboaters, for the most part are unaware of the constraints a sailboat has regarding maneuverability unless they also have some time aboard a sailboat.

[Shenandoah52]

Originally Posted by StuM

What if the sailboat is a close hauled 200ft "tall ship" bearing down on you? Would that alter your perception?
How about if it is a 5000t tanker instead of a sailboat?

Very good points. That entire post. I was in the LA Harbor area when I had my sportfisher. Large boats were everywhere and you had better pay attention.

Funny story... in the channel where the LA River dumps out into the harbor the channel is very narrow. This is also where the berth is for the car carrier ships just like the one that capsized off of Georgia this week. I was headed down the channel coming from a friends marina in my boat and a large tugboat was holding one of those car carrier ships fast to the dock.

The prop wash was very pronounced and created a white-water condition all the way across and perpendicular to the narrow channel. In front of me was a small sailboat with the skipper standing up with his hand on the tiller. When he entered the prop wash of the tug it caught his keel fin and knocked the boat right out from under him with the mast almost hitting the tug boat. He dang near fell overboard towards the tug.

Either that was his first time around tugboats or he wasn't paying attention. I guarantee he never motored into a tugs prop wash after that episode.

But the tugboat captain wasn't finished. I was about 50 yards behind the sailboat and as I approached to pass the tug that tug added power and the channel came to life. I also added throttle and as I went past it was like riding the rapids. Luckily my boat didn't have the draft of the sailboat so I got by more or less unscathed. Those tugs don't fool around.

I can see something else going on here I need to pay attention to. When I was actively boating from the '70s onward things were a whole lot more relaxed than in today's litigious world. I know I'm old, but sometimes I wish things weren't so crowded these days that we need so many regulations when what we should be doing is teaching common sense. And that is no knock against the COLREGS, btw.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Shenandoah52

Ok, here's what I'm not getting... a drifting fishing boat is supposed to move out of the way of a sailboat if the fishing boat sees a sailboat heading its' way?

Yep. It is that simple, as long as the sailboat is under sail. Motoring or motor sailing they are just another power boat and the rules apply accordingly.


Let's not lose sight of the fact that as described the power boat is not a fishing boat in the context of the rules - they are just a bunch of yahoos out fishing on a power boat.

Originally Posted by Sojourner

As I've said a few times, I don't believe many if not most boaters we encounter know let alone understand the nuances of the COLREGS

Which statement is part of the problem. Yes the Inland Rules are very similar to the COLREGS but they are not the same. Inside the demarcation line (which is what the OP scenario sounds like) the Inland Rules are in force. Anyone that doesn't get the difference should do more research before holding forth.



In my mind the situation is simple. Don't hit the yahoos. Call the Coast Guard and tell them someone is blocking the channel, provide latitude and longitude, give them contact information, tell the watch officer you'll follow up when you make landfall, and say you're willing to testify. Take pictures of the boat, the yahoos, and your plotter. You can't fix stupid but you can punish it.



If you are too busy for that, just go around them and get on with your life.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by StuM

No, I wasn't. But it certainly looks as though they are gybing downwind under an assymetric spinnaker as opposed to the boats in the distance that are running under symmetric spinnakers. If that is the case, they will by necessity be zig-zagging either side of the lay line to make best VMG.

Seventy degrees off the plumb line? No, I believe the sailors wanted a close look at my boat.

[senormechanico]

If the rhumb line was DDW, it looks to me like they're about 45 degrees off.
If there's favorable current, they could easily be doing gybes of 140 over the bottom while sailing fast on a beam reach.
We do that as well. Our fastest VMG down wind is on a reach with AWA @ 90.


I can identify with people changing course to have a look at you. It happens a lot, even airplanes a few times... but why do power boats ALWAYS cross in front?

[bensolomon]

I like to think we are all Mariners, connected to the water. There is no harm in being a good citizen and tacking to avoid the drifting fishing boat, colregs not withstanding.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

I like to think we are all Mariners, connected to the water. There is no harm in being a good citizen and tacking to avoid the drifting fishing boat, colregs not withstanding.

I agree. That does not make the drifting fisherman less of a butthead.