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Old 06-08-2013, 07:53   #61
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

It is a common practice in Alaska, for a rented slip to be double booked while the original renter is out and about, and no kick back to the original renter, these docks are owned by the municipality and not private. A radio call a couple of hours in advance of arrival usually sees them clear by the time you get in.
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:54   #62
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

Obviously you can't cut the lines and set the boat adrift. I mean, seriously. What are you thinking?

You can (or the marina owner can) charge people, lock up the boat, change the locks to be two-way, and some of the other ideas that have been suggested here. There are a whole lot of things that can be done, if this is an on-going problem. But those things need to be done by the marina owners/managers, rather than individual boat owners who are berthed in the marina.

If you can't get the marina owners to take reasonable steps, then it may be time to find another marina.
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:55   #63
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

The problem is that this is going to be governed by each state's particular laws and there is not going to be a one size fits all answer.
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:09   #64
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

I wish to answer Delancy (post #56).

I have in mind the state park marina in Morro Bay, California. Sorry, I don't have the long/lat coordinates but you can find it yourself.

It's a tight marina of a few floating docks but before you get to those docks you have to enter aft of a few slips. And before those slips is a kayak rental business. It can be tight between a lee shore even in high water. At spring ebbs boats have been known to ground. The prevailing winds can be flukey 'round about that part of the bay. Every slip is spoken for.

So here I come without an assigned slip. Granted, I've already passed the HP dock, 2 fuel docks, and the yacht club dock. I round the corner and grab the first slip. There is no guest dock. I park in "your" slip while you are on a day sail. The tight little community will advise me of my trespass. Amends will be made before you even enter the harbor which even with the tide will take you the better part of an hour before you arrive to your slip. It's only in the docktales that you'll know someone was wrongfully in your slip. Where's the harm to you?

The underlying problem in this thread is it is not clear if the OP was providing personal opinion or conjecture. We strive to answer a generalized post with specific comment. We gravitate to personal anecdote in our attempt. One size does not fit all.

But there is one edict which should govern all which best can be answered by the question of how would it be if it were you with your stern hanging into the channel into the marina? It seems to me that in the OP there is an existing problem with non-members, transients, whatever not rightly making use of the better facilities. The problem had become such a sore spot that the most recent transgressor became the scapegoat.
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:19   #65
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

Cutting the Lines: This is intentially putting the boat in harms way and you will likely be held responsible.

Chaining or towing: Are viable options, expecially for repeat offendors. I would suggest a note the first time with increasing consequences for future incidents. Odds are that will take care of the problem.

I do find it ironic that the OP goes on about this but then says it's Ok when he sneaks into other marinas for the night without paying.
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:25   #66
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

It occurs to me to say at least it wasn't a cat what with the beam.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:27   #67
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
It is a common practice in Alaska, for a rented slip to be double booked while the original renter is out and about, and no kick back to the original renter, these docks are owned by the municipality and not private. A radio call a couple of hours in advance of arrival usually sees them clear by the time you get in.

I'm in a private marina and that's how it works. I figure it probably keeps my rent down. But I do ask them to not use mine, and if they are going to use mine, I set my own line so that it would be a real bother to use them, except for my "instant dockline," which other people most likely wouldn't use anyway (might well not be set right for their boat, and extremely hard to reset.)
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:05   #68
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

How can I respond when you didn't answer the questions???
The details are very significant.
If there is no notification/sign then it is not trespassing, that is the most significant issue.

810.09 Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance.—
(1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance:
1. As to which notice against entering or remaining is given, either by actual communication to the offender or by posting, fencing, or cultivation as described in s. 810.011;


Your neighbor is responsible for his boat, if he tried to go around and grounded, that is his fault, his mistake. If the boat was a hazard to navigation, it should be moved.

As others have said, you can't cut his docklines, put feral cats on board, sink it, piss on it, etc. Being inconsiderate does not give you the right to be 4 times more inconsiderate in return.

Put up a sign saying private dock no trespassing, violators will be charged for boat removal in accordance to your local laws.

I live next to a high school, and kids walk by and just drop trash on my street almost everyday. Doesn't mean I can whack them with a baseball bat.
If I really wanted to I might videotape them and get the police to fine them,
as they will be back the next day for sure, unless expelled..

And also my response to fast, was he said 'they deserve what they get',
which implies whacking with a baseball bat, or 'what they get' is deserved.
This is different than 'get what they deserve', which is a fine.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancy View Post
Fast Bottoms asked you what the significance of the details were and questioned whether details would change the fact that the guy was trespassing. When you didn't respond to him by enlightening the community I figured it was because what ever you had to say wasn't a big deal.

Whatever you have to say must be really important to keep it secret so I'll play along a bit because I am dying to know.

I have not personally spoken with my neighbor and can't confirm because I wasn't here when it happened but yes, it sounds like my neighbor grounded when entering due to the presence of the offending vessel.

My neighbor is a good sailor and I doubt he would have been going more than half a knot when he touched so I doubt there was significant damage but since this seems to matter to you let's say it was significant.

The offending boat wasn't a dinghy, it was a 35 foot pontoon boat with a beam that took up half the channel, the outside of the channel was rip rap. The offender didn't have a muscle shirt but did have a fat gut.

He wasn't out of beer but apparently he tied his boat up to go to his friends apartment nearby for a couple hours. It was after dark and I believe there was alcohol involved in his decision to park his boat where he did. He could have just as easily walked, taken a bike, ridden a ferry, hitchhiked, taken a bus, or driven a car to get to his friend's house.

Our marina is not a club. In my case, it is my home when I am not out sailing. As before this kind of thing is not an isolated incident. The dock is not a public dock, hence it has a lock on it.

By questioning the circumstances you sound to me like you're somehow sympathetic to the trespasser. Or maybe because your airplane hanger has a "no trespassing" sign on it but my marina does not, you feel I don't have grounds to take offensive at strangers using my marina at their leisure and convenience.

I gave you the details asked, please do share your wisdom. I am dying to know how the details change the fact the guy was trespassing and whether or not the offender should suffer some consequence for his actions which directly and negatively affected other people, however great or slight.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:11   #69
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
810.09 Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance.—
(1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance...
I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect this law would not apply in this case, as the dock would probably be considered a "structure."

Regardless, a simple sign, as you suggested, would almost certainly go a long way to reduce the problem here.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:17   #70
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Re: "Dock Lines will be Cut!"

Personally, I would never cut any dock lines or set anybody adrift, nor do I advocate anyone do likewise. My interest in the topic is primarily academic.

My curiosity led me to call the local tow guy and in our area it sounds like the first step is to call the State Police. What happens next he couldn't specifically but he did say he has been involved in towing people off docks after the police were involved. I doubt it was an pleasant or inexpensive experience for them to get heir boat back.

Chaining a boat up doesn't strike me as being a particularly unreasonable action, but it does potentially force a confrontation should the offending owner return before the police.

I doubt locking someone's boat up who is trespassing is going to run you afoul of the law. I have seen this before at a number of marinas with delinquent tenants.Charging an exorbitant sum to unlock it could be a grey area, I am not sure how you would calculate the amount other than prorating the regular rate but that doesn't seem very fair for the marina. Seems like it should be more.

Not surprisingly the tow guy asked if it was a nice boat, when I said it wasn't he commented that they never are, people with nice boats don't leave them unattended.

What does surprise me a bit is that not one person I have chased away has been anything other than completely unapologetic. Mind you when I do encounter people trying to land at the marina I am always polite when first confronting them.

When I say these people have an air of entitlement it because they do. One of my favorites was the charter boat captain from a Mega Yacht who pouted to his paying guests that I had ruined their day trip ashore. He was like a three year old who his candy taken away. What a baby.

Why some people think they have the authority to come and go wherever they please is beyond me. Having a boat or being a member of a yacht club entitles you the incurred expenses of maintaining a boat and paying membership dues. It doesn't give you a license to be a dick.

My advice to people who would trespass is to expect consequences for your actions and not be a baby about it when you do, it's just plain uncouth.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:25   #71
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Re: "Dock Lines will be Cut!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancy View Post
Charging an exorbitant sum to unlock it could be a grey area, I am not sure how you would calculate the amount other than prorating the regular rate but that doesn't seem very fair for the marina. Seems like it should be more.
I think as long as you have a sign up then can charge WTF you want , that may not mean you can chain the boat up upon arrival - but at least it means you can send them a bill, which likely will keep them away a 2nd time......especially if you claim that non payment after 30 days may involve the vessel being seized / chained the next time it arrives........(whether that legal or not is another thing!).

Overall I think the procedure would then be exactly the same as if someone turns up in a slip and says I am not moving and am not paying!........and leaves after a month.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:35   #72
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Re: "dock lines will be cut!"

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Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
I don't think anybody is seriously advocating that the harbormaster chain a boat that had been thoughtlessly parked for a couple hours in a spot where it shouldn't be.
I'm not a mind reader, I respond to what had been said. Cutting lines was mentioned.
Quote:
The point (my point, anyway) is that the harbormaster would be well within his rights to do it and if he did, the boat's owner would have had it coming.
I agree although "...had it coming." sounds ominous and threatening. Surely there is a better way to communicate without ultimatum or sounds of threat.
Quote:
And I would not expect the harbormaster to keep track of which non-tenant owners had transgressed multiple times. If it was a chronic problem at all, he should be able to take measures to remedy the issue so that word gets out that if you park in a slip that you have not paid for, you're gonna get chained.
I would. The duty of the harbor master is to know every boat, every owner, every contact number. That's why they are the master. So they aren't immediately aware of every boat coming or going but they do know their harbor. Another duty of the master is to prevent a problem from becoming chronic. That includes appearing before the city council if need be.

I recognize not every harbor or marina is so organized. I recognize a master may be in title only, to collect rents and so on. But a proper harbor master knows the condition of every dock, dock gate and companion way, every slip, every mooring, the depths, the tides, etc. And he would know of every problem in his harbor.

Before you think I am talking of some high falutin place, I have Morro Bay in mind. Rich and Jim sure knew how to manage their roles as masters. Both were approachable as long time friends even if you only have met them for the first time.
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:26   #73
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Re: "Dock Lines will be Cut!"

No one has really addresses the legal rights (and responsibilities) of the Marina.

Using dock space for free that would otherwise cost is, in virtually all jurisdictions, a "theft of services", the severity generally based on the value of the services. That said, such a crime generally requires knowledge on the part of the thief, either general (as in not paying a hotel, common knowledge that hotels charge) or specific (as Shishole Marina in Seattle posting signs that short-term dockage must be paid for immediately on docking). in this case, even if there are no signs, local would be expected to know this marina does not provide free dockage and the locked gate certainly is adequate notice that usage of docks is restricted. It would bolster the marina's case to have "No Trespassing" or "Pay upon Docking" signs out on the docks.

The marina would generally, within reason, be allowed to do what is necessary to get paid for its services. A notice on the boat, chaining the boat to the dock, etc. would probably be considered reasonable. Even having the boat towed if such a service is available would be reasonable if prior notice is given.

The only issue I have with the OP, is he has not mentioned actions the marina has taken, he has only mentioned his own interactions with violators (unless I missed it). if this is an issue for the slipholders, the marina should be doing something. Any Harbormaster should know if a paid docked there has paid or not. If not paid, the Harbormaster should deal with it.

If an owner comes back and takes off without paying, his contact information is readily available whether the boat is documented or state registered. Send him a bill, and if he does not pay, send to a collection agency. If he docks again, chain the boat until he pays.
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Old 06-08-2013, 14:23   #74
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Re: "Dock Lines will be Cut!"

First Post: "I will be the first person to admit to coming into a strange harbor late at night, tying up at the gas dock or grabbing an empty mooring, and leaving at the crack of dawn."

Recent Post: "Why some people think they have the authority to come and go wherever they please is beyond me. Having a boat or being a member of a yacht club entitles you the incurred expenses of maintaining a boat and paying membership dues. It doesn't give you a license to be a dick. My advice to people who would trespass is to expect consequences for your actions and not be a baby about it when you do, it's just plain uncouth. "

Anyone else see the irony?
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Old 06-08-2013, 15:01   #75
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Re: "Dock Lines will be Cut!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
First Post: "I will be the first person to admit to coming into a strange harbor late at night, tying up at the gas dock or grabbing an empty mooring, and leaving at the crack of dawn."

Recent Post: "Why some people think they have the authority to come and go wherever they please is beyond me. Having a boat or being a member of a yacht club entitles you the incurred expenses of maintaining a boat and paying membership dues. It doesn't give you a license to be a dick. My advice to people who would trespass is to expect consequences for your actions and not be a baby about it when you do, it's just plain uncouth. "

Anyone else see the irony?

Yep.
It's also amazing how possessive and down right vindictive people become for two hours of their little space.
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