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View Poll Results: Do You Hoist a Black Ball at Anchor?
Yes - all the time 82 32.54%
Yes - once in a while 40 15.87%
No - no one does it so why bother 110 43.65%
Never heard of this 20 7.94%
Voters: 252. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-06-2019, 05:00   #781
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHeron View Post
OK, then...so who here flies a cone when motor-sailing? Who even has one? We have three balls. I've never seen a small version cone at any sailing shop ever, although I see they are available at Defender for a reasonable price. I really should order one and be compliant by flying it.

https://www.defender.com/product3.js...133&id=2492605
Been discussed: Cone poll
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Old 12-06-2019, 06:39   #782
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

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Originally Posted by dfelsent View Post
Edge cases. The rule says “A vessel proceeding under sail shall .....”
A yawl or ketch with only the mizzen up as a stabilizer. Cone or no cone? A fishing boat with a stabilizing sail? A trawler with a stabilizing sail?
How does enforcement handle that in actual practice?

IMNSHO:
proceeding = moving.
under sail = with the sail(s) hoisted. (OED, Cambridge,Websters)


Whether the sail(s) provide motive force or not, if there is a sail up and you are motoring, the rule applies. It comes down to what the other vessel sees (a vessel with a sail up) and how it applies COLREGs.


Any other interpretation would require the other vessel to make a determination based on exactly what sails they see.


Of course, someone will point out the words "when also " and argue the contrary
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Old 12-06-2019, 07:06   #783
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Lets see: if a 0.6 meter ball is good for a 1000 foot tanker, then for my 46 foot yacht something like 0.6/1000=x/46 or around .03 meters should meet the regs. Pretty easy to store that,but maybe hard to find!

Leaves me feeling ok about my basketball sized shape.

Jim
So sorry, allowance for scaling starts at 20m (65’) boat length not at 1000’.
So 46’/65’*0.6m=0.424m=16-3/4”.

For my boat it would be 20/65*0.6=0.308m=12-1/8”.
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Old 12-06-2019, 07:15   #784
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
I have to smile , an inverted cone flown in the foretriangle whilst motorsailing will be almost invisible to most other vessels, well concealed by the sail.
For any boat overtaking which would have its view of the cone obstructed by the main, whether you are motoring or sailing is irrelevant to the fact that they are the give-way vessel.

Any vessel approaching from ahead or crossing should be able to see the cone forward of the main.

If you are motor-sailing with the jib up the you should probably hang the cone from the end of a pole protruding forward of the sail.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:09   #785
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHeron View Post
OK, then...so who here flies a cone when motor-sailing? Who even has one? We have three balls. I've never seen a small version cone at any sailing shop ever, although I see they are available at Defender for a reasonable price. I really should order one and be compliant by flying it.

https://www.defender.com/product3.js...133&id=2492605
I don't see any point to displaying a cone. If you are "being propelled by machinery" you are a motor vessel. Never mind if you have a sail up. You aren't entitled to any vessel giving-way under the rules as a sailing vessel.

The only information it can convey is: "Even though I may look like a sailing vessel - I'm not one. I am capable of making way directly upwind and you don't have to give way to me as a sailing vessel." What's the point in that? I'll let those of you who are armchair admiralty law lawyers pick that apart but please keep in mind that regardless -- no one ever has "right of way" while underway. Just try to find that phrase in the COLREGs. It appears only once -- to warn law enforcement vessels that they DON'T have right-of-way. No one does. Ever. The whole purpose of the Rules of the Road are to provide predictability of the actions of the other vessel in a conflicting situation.

If you are making way and you collide - you bear part of the blame from a liability standpoint. The other skipper may be cited for something (drinking for example), but you still share part of the blame. Sucks, doesn't it? But that's how it works.

Sailing the crowded S.F. Bay, I've seen too many sailing skippers demand right-of-way. They even demand right-of-way over other sailboats just because they are racing. (They're naturally an arrogant lot.) I've more than once had a racer that nearly swapped paint after I sounded five horns and gave way yell at me: "I'm racing!" I just yelled back: "I'm cursing!" I've even had that happen when I was hove to taking in sail outside a harbor.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:17   #786
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Pat View Post
I don't see any point to displaying a cone. If you are "being propelled by machinery" you are a motor vessel. Never mind if you have a sail up. You aren't entitled to any vessel giving-way under the rules as a sailing vessel.

The only information it can convey is: "Even though I may look like a sailing vessel - I'm not one - and I am capable of making way directly upwind and you don't have to give way to me as a sailing vessel." What's the point in that?

The point is so that the other vessel, seeing your cone, knows it is obligated to stand-on.


Otherwise, it might think that since you are under sail, you are the one obligated to stand on, and it is free to start maneuvering to avoid you.


That runs against the basic principle of collision avoidance -- that two crossing vessels each have an assigned role -- one active, one passive, one maneuvering, one holding course and speed. Without clear assigned roles, if both vessels are maneuvering at the same time, they can maneuver into each other -- a frequent cause of collisions prior to the adoption of the COLREGS. And that is the whole reason why we have the give-way and stand-on rules, which assign those roles, obligating one vessel to maneuver and the other vessel to hold course and speed.



The cone makes it clear who is who.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:34   #787
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The point is so that the other vessel, seeing your cone, knows it is obligated to stand-on.


Otherwise, it might think that since you are under sail, you are the one obligated to stand on, and it is free to start maneuvering to avoid you.


That runs against the basic principle of collision avoidance -- that two crossing vessels each have an assigned role -- one active, one passive, one maneuvering, one holding course and speed. Without clear assigned roles, if both vessels are maneuvering at the same time, they can maneuver into each other -- a frequent cause of collisions prior to the adoption of the COLREGS. And that is the whole reason why we have the give-way and stand-on rules, which assign those roles, obligating one vessel to maneuver and the other vessel to hold course and speed.



The cone makes it clear who is who.
One of the more concise, clearly stated synopses of the Rules I've read! Use of the terms "assigned roles" and "active/passive" are helpful ways of furthering understanding for those who may have the "right-of-way" mindset (like I once did ) from rules-of-the-road on land.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:06   #788
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The point is so that the other vessel, seeing your cone, knows it is obligated to stand-on.


Otherwise, it might think that since you are under sail, you are the one obligated to stand on, and it is free to start maneuvering to avoid you.


(...)


The cone makes it clear who is who.
Thank you Dockhead. Well stated. You make a valid point.
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Old 12-06-2019, 13:16   #789
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Cpt Pat View Post

Sailing the crowded S.F. Bay, I've seen too many sailing skippers demand right-of-way. They even demand right-of-way over other sailboats just because they are racing. (They're naturally an arrogant lot.) I've more than once had a racer that nearly swapped paint after I sounded five horns and gave way yell at me: "I'm racing!" I just yelled back: "I'm cursing!" I've even had that happen when I was hove to taking in sail outside a harbor.
From a previous thread on the subject of dealing with COLREGs and racers:
"when going downwind , get right up close behind them, that way you won't be in their way..."

Do you really yell back, "I'm cursing!", or do you yell back, "I'm cruising!" ?

I would be inclined to just yell back, "Yeah well I'm drinking!" and raise a toast with a beer towards them.
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Old 12-06-2019, 13:40   #790
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
From a previous thread on the subject of dealing with COLREGs and racers:
"when going downwind , get right up close behind them, that way you won't be in their way..."

Do you really yell back, "I'm cursing!", or do you yell back, "I'm cruising!" ?

I would be inclined to just yell back, "Yeah well I'm drinking!" and raise a toast with a beer towards them.

I think it's polite to stay well clear and not impede people racing, when practical.


OTOH, some racers really abuse the politeness of cruisers. One racing boat in the Solent, some years ago, tacked practically right under my bows. Not while racing -- just during a practice. Expecting me to crash stop or throw the helm over (I was motoring, and incidentally single handed).


I just carried on looking at him as if I had frozen up, not knowing what had happened or what I should do.


You should have seen the commotion on that boat trying to get back around to stay out from under my from their perspective towering bows (an M54 looks like serious tonnage from the deck of a J130 ).


I know that was neither seamanlike nor nice, and I've never done anything like that before or since. Indeed, I am ashamed to tell the story :blushing:. But sure was fun at the time
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Old 12-06-2019, 14:10   #791
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

I had a racer aboard my boat in the Solent once. It pays to remember that these weekend round-the-cans guys think exclusively in racing terms, and are just used to everyone else in sight doing the same thing -- including the special racing rules. He'd think nothing of tacking onto starboard right in front of another boat because he expected the other boat to be expecting him to do that.

He found it quite hard to get out of the "red mist" mindset when helming.

That's why I give them a fairly wide berth and let them get on with their racing.
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Old 12-06-2019, 14:22   #792
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

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I had a racer aboard my boat in the Solent once. It pays to remember that these weekend round-the-cans guys think exclusively in racing terms, and are just used to everyone else in sight doing the same thing -- including the special racing rules. He'd think nothing of tacking onto starboard right in front of another boat because he expected the other boat to be expecting him to do that.

He found it quite hard to get out of the "red mist" mindset when helming.

That's why I give them a fairly wide berth and let them get on with their racing.

Thanks a lot for making me look bad with your mature and wise approach.


Kidding aside, you are absolutely right.
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Old 12-06-2019, 19:13   #793
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

We race around the islands every Wednesday afternoon in a social series right infront of a busy marina, there is often non racing boats in the mix. 99.99% of the time they are very understanding and appreciated in giving a bit more room than they need. Occasionally not, but if thats the case we just follow the rules and don't expect more.

You can probably appreciate if you are in a close race and your boat is borderline to reach the next mark on your tack it is disappointing to have the disadvantage of making 2 extra tacks when the boat your racing against doesn't. If you can still make the mark by minimising your loss by passing close to the stand on vessel you might consider it if it is safe to do so.
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Old 12-06-2019, 20:06   #794
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

One of the racer vs cruiser issues is that racers are used to very close passes... done all the time, often well within a boat length. To non racers, this is tantamount to a collision and leads to recriminations against the racers, who then wonder wtf the hoo-haa is about.

I've been on both ends of this situation, and I can't see much of a solution. The poor cruiser... how is he to know if the guy about to t-bone him will in fact duck his stern, or if he is a drunken bozo who will killem dead? And the racer... in a mixed fleet race, how is he to know if the starboard tacker he's about to duck will have a heart attack because he's just out day sailing and thinks he's about to die?

Leads to coarse language usage...

Jim
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Old 12-06-2019, 20:41   #795
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Re: Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
One of the racer vs cruiser issues is that racers are used to very close passes... done all the time, often well within a boat length. To non racers, this is tantamount to a collision and leads to recriminations against the racers, who then wonder wtf the hoo-haa is about.

I've been on both ends of this situation, and I can't see much of a solution. The poor cruiser... how is he to know if the guy about to t-bone him will in fact duck his stern, or if he is a drunken bozo who will killem dead? And the racer... in a mixed fleet race, how is he to know if the starboard tacker he's about to duck will have a heart attack because he's just out day sailing and thinks he's about to die?

Leads to coarse language usage...

Jim
Definitely an issue Jim, I can sympathise on both sides.

Not strictly to do with what we are discussing but worth an honorable mention.

One week we had a clown on a trawler come through the fleet a few times who was on the radio claiming limited mobility and aiming for boats yelling for them to get out of his way. Clearly he was on something and started abusing the coast guard for not comming out to help. Last communication from him was "I'm being illegally boarded by 3 police officers please send help". It went on for an hour or two, even made the news.
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