Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Polux

Funny we have talked about Propaganda regarding another topic. You give the idea that the Licence of Yacht Navigator is just a diploma that does not stand for any knowledge and that is not true and misleading. I would call that propaganda. Why did they would not pass another copy to you if it was just a piece of paper?

I don't call that propaganda. I call that " a diploma is not a license".

If for example have a engineering diploma. I cannot however exercise the job of electrical engineer where I currently live because I don't have the license. Its not a problem as I make my living in IT. I do have several IT related certificates, but none I need to be able to legally perform my job.

A diploma is just that, they call it "brevet" in Belgium not for nothing, this word clearly implicates that it does not entitle you to anything.

That's why I couldn't get a duplicate. It's not that important. It's not like a driving licence.

And this brings us back to the reality, where Spain apparently accepts the ICC because they realise that otherwise they would have an unenforceable law, and you can't allow officials losing face after all.

Normally when it comes to boating licenses the principle of comity is applied. As you said:
"they say that the licence should be the one that provides that competence on the Skipper's country."

Given that in some countries having a birth certificate is sufficient to sail a boat at sea I suppose that I could just show that?
It's a certificate after all, and it does allow me to sail my boat...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

In US I do not need a license anywhere as long as my own state of registration and/or residence does not require one. Here we have concept of comity i.e. one state has to accept another state's requirements if someone is passing through. It's something else if I hang out longer than the usual 30 or some such days for the "passing through" and become more of a resident by my actions, i.e. rent an apartment, get a job, get a local tel. number, etc. It's similar with cars as some states have a temp period when a purchaser may drive around w/o regular plates but with only his purchase paperwork (or something to that effect) under the rear window. MA does not allow it's own residents to drive even for 1 minute without the plates but legally has to let those temporarily plateless out of state cars through.

Now I sometimes hear of local cops not knowing this rule and ticketing and even towing such cars but the drivers if they pursue this in court always win as this is the greater constitutional law which the state has to abide by but not every LEO is aware of this. I suspect that the European maritime LEOs are similarly misinfromed as the applicable maritime conventions clearly exempt boaters such as myself from local boat licensing rules (i.e. the conventions usually say that they must accept the license of the boater's country/state, which clearly means if the country/state does not require or issue one they must accept that fact). But of course I would not chance it after crossing the Pond just to be turned back and would get something which will satisfy even the least knowledgeable Euro maritime LEO before I show up there.

What you says regarding cars seems like the direct of innocent passage that is respected in Europe for boats and ships even recreational ones. But if you are not passing but cruising on another state that probably will be a all different matter as psneeld says. You are not passing anymore you are kind of living there temporary.

It seems that there is different opinions about it. I would like to hear more about what is that right of passage regarding sailors with no licence sailing boats on a state that requires one. That's a federal definition or the right of passage is defined on each state (regarding in what its, I mean how many days and so on)?

[SkiprJohn]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You are on a rant and not thinking clearly. The point in testing and licensing (which is just proof that you passed the test and nothing more) is to make the water safer for everyone. This includes you and me. It means the other boater knows which side of you he should be passing on and when he/she is the stand on or give way vessel. It means he/she knows when to display an anchor light and where not to anchor.

I'm sure you could remember times when you have been put in danger by ignorant boaters. As a boater, why would you not want other boaters to be as educated and safe as you are?

I might be on a rant but I don't think so. I've stated that it is just as easy to have a requirement to prove that you've had the education necessary to safely operate a boat through a certificate of completion without having to have a license. You don't seem to understand my statement so I'll not post on this subject again because I've said the same things three different ways and have made my opinion known.

Thinking clearly?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

....

And this brings us back to the reality, where Spain apparently accepts the ICC because they realise that otherwise they would have an unenforceable law, and you can't allow officials losing face after all.

Normally when it comes to boating licenses the principle of comity is applied. As you said:
"they say that the licence should be the one that provides that competence on the Skipper's country."
....

Look again, they demand the sailing qualification that one needs to sail that type of boat on that area on the skipper's country (and refer those licences). When that country has no mandatory licences they state what are the licences or certificates that are valid to the skippers of that country, in what regards sailing in Spain, many times several.

According to the Spanish law the ICC is only valid for Ireland and UK. Sailors of other countries have to have the licences or certificates referred to their own country. The Annex is on the end of the PDF, last pages and on it are referred the licences or certificates valid regarding each country, separately.

http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2014/10/1...2014-10344.pdf

Originally Posted by K_V_B

....
I don't call that propaganda. I call that " a diploma is not a license".

If for example have a engineering diploma. I cannot however exercise the job of electrical engineer where I currently live because I don't have the license. Its not a problem as I make my living in IT. I do have several IT related certificates, but none I need to be able to legally perform my job.

A diploma is just that, they call it "brevet" in Belgium not for nothing, this word clearly implicates that it does not entitle you to anything.

That's why I couldn't get a duplicate. It's not that important. It's not like a driving licence.

The word Brevet has many meanings, in France a Brevet, for instance, is also used for a flying licence. Anyway regarding sailing on Belgique the government says that a sailing licence is a Brevet. Cannot be a licence regarding the ones for sea since in Belgium does not licence anything, even if they call it a Brevet anyway (There is no licence for sailing the Ocean). A diploma is a paper that states only that someone has a Brevet, not a brevet itself.

The name that is given to the Belgium boat licence that are mandatory to sail the interior waters is "Brevet", according official government papers and in this case it is a licence:

"The general steering certificate (algemeen stuurbrevet - brevet de conduite général) that allows its holder to steer a pleasure craft on all the waterways, inclusive the maritime waterways... "

http://www.belgium.be/fr/mobilite/en..._de_plaisance/

"Le brevet de conduite est obligatoire si vous faites de la navigation intérieure et que votre bateau a une taille supérieure ou égale à 15 m ou qu'il a une vitesse maximale supérieure à 20 km/h. Pour la navigation intérieure, il existe deux types de brevets de conduite :"

http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/bin...467-201342.pdf
Brevet de base de pilote d'avion — Wikipédia

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

In US I do not need a license anywhere as long as my own state of registration and/or residence does not require one. Here we have concept of comity i.e. one state has to accept another state's requirements if someone is passing through. It's something else if I hang out longer than the usual 30 or some such days for the "passing through" and become more of a resident by my actions, i.e. rent an apartment, get a job, get a local tel. number, etc. It's similar with cars as some states have a temp period when a purchaser may drive around w/o regular plates but with only his purchase paperwork (or something to that effect) under the rear window. MA does not allow it's own residents to drive even for 1 minute without the plates but legally has to let those temporarily plateless out of state cars through.

Now I sometimes hear of local cops not knowing this rule and ticketing and even towing such cars but the drivers if they pursue this in court always win as this is the greater constitutional law which the state has to abide by but not every LEO is aware of this. I suspect that the European maritime LEOs are similarly misinfromed as the applicable maritime conventions clearly exempt boaters such as myself from local boat licensing rules (i.e. the conventions usually say that they must accept the license of the boater's country/state, which clearly means if the country/state does not require or issue one they must accept that fact). But of course I would not chance it after crossing the Pond just to be turned back and would get something which will satisfy even the least knowledgeable Euro maritime LEO before I show up there.

you must have some proof of boating safety education (with you) to pass though New Jersey waters.

http://www.njsp.org/maritime/faq.html

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by psneeld

you must have some proof of boating safety education (with you) to pass though New Jersey waters.

New Jersey State Police - Marine Services Bureau - FAQ's

And Washington, DC waters. That requirement has been in place for ten years or more.

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by psneeld

you must have some proof of boating safety education (with you) to pass though New Jersey waters.

New Jersey State Police - Marine Services Bureau - FAQ's

As is required in Florida then, but only for those people born after Jan 1st 1988, so how do us oldies fare in New Joisie and DC then, are we told to go get one and sent home to get it or be locked up? I have a Florida Boaters test pass card ( took it outa simple curiosity) even though I'm the wrong side of 70 and not obliged to. alternatively I could just wave my UK issued ICC or even my UK pensioner's Bus Pass at them or perhaps better still make an easier passage offshore and just leave them to it, nothing interesting to see there anyway.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Robin3

As is required in Florida then, but only for those people born after Jan 1st 1988, so how do us oldies fare in New Joisie and DC then, are we told to go get one and sent home to get it or be locked up? I have a Florida Boaters test pass card ( took it outa simple curiosity) even though I'm the wrong side of 70 and not obliged to. alternatively I could just wave my UK issued ICC or even my UK pensioner's Bus Pass at them or perhaps better still make an easier passage offshore and just leave them to it, nothing interesting to see there anyway.

I'm not sure if you are asking a question or just ranting, but, at least for DC, you need proof of passing an approved boating safety course. If you have been boating as much as most of us here, you can ace the test and get your certificate. Boat US has an on-line course and I believe it is approved most anywhere in the US.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

In US I do not need a license anywhere as long as my own state of registration and/or residence does not require one...............

That is incorrect. When I lived in MD, I took my boat on the Potomac River in DC a couple times. Then I became aware that even though I was age exempt from a MD certificate, I was operating illegally in DC.

I now have a SC certificate and cruised the Potomac last year. Legally.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by rwidman

That is incorrect. When I lived in MD, I took my boat on the Potomac River in DC a couple times. Then I became aware that even though I was age exempt from a MD certificate, I was operating illegally in DC.

I now have a SC certificate and cruised the Potomac last year. Legally.

I don't need a license to boat in Washington State, but my Concealed Carry License wouldn't help me in New Jersey or New York State.

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by rwidman

I'm not sure if you are asking a question or just ranting, but, at least for DC, you need proof of passing an approved boating safety course. If you have been boating as much as most of us here, you can ace the test and get your certificate. Boat US has an on-line course and I believe it is approved most anywhere in the US.

No not a rant, I was merely posing a 'what if' question, surely a perfectly valid question since I am not required to pass a boater safety test in my home State of Florida, where I am a full time resident, because of my age.. As I said beforehand I did actually take a Florida Boaters test (online) and have my 'pass' certificate, but I only did that out of curiosity and yes I did ace it, in fact I thought it was so dumbed down I would be ashamed not to have, but that is what you get IMO with 'enforced' education and testing as opposed to 'encouraged to gain more knowledge' type education. If I didn't have my Florida pass card, could I sail/motor through DC waters without being torpedoed, arrested, or asked to leave? As a US resident but still British Citizen, and in a US documented and flagged sailing yacht (with an engine0, would my existing British ICC count?? I have been sailing for well over 60 years in all sizes of boats and have owned and sailed my own cruising and /or racing yachts for over 50 years and before I retired from my business, in my last 26 years based in the UK averaged over 2000nm per year, sometimes exceeding 3000nm and this in one of the busiest shipping density areas in the world. There are indeed differences and I have had to learn to deal with back to front or inside out buoyage from what the rest of the world uses, us being 'posh' and all that, ( as in port out Starboard home).

And so the arguments continue without resolution, I still do not favour compulsory licencing but would like to see active encouragement for folks to seek and gain knowledge themselves, voluntarily.

[rwidman]

Just to be clear:

DC boating regulations, rules for the Boater Safety Education ID Card

Education Requirement
Anyone operating a vessel on District of Columbia waterways is required to have a Boating Safety Certificate.

or the long version:

http://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/fil...ulations_0.pdf

1026.6 Any person who is operating or navigating any vessel shall have in his or her
possession satisfactory evidence of having completed an approved boating safety course,
or the person shall make evidence of having completed a boating safety course available
to the Harbor Master at the vessel’s launching or berthing point on the shore adjacent to
District of Columbia waters.

[psneeld]

Proof as the regs say is what you need....the regs have been posted or links provided.

I know people who have boated 60 years and tens of thousands of miles....still doesn't mean anything more than they are lucky and salty....doesn't mean they know the rules or much of anything else.

They might...but no more guarantee than a q5 year old with a safety certificate.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Just to be clear:

DC boating regulations, rules for the Boater Safety Education ID Card


or the long version:

http://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/fil...ulations_0.pdf

I don't doubt that that's what the law says. My point is that given enough $$ to hire a competent team of Con Law attorneys these requirements would be struck down as unconstitutional. The problem in real life of course is that an individual non Jersey boater even financially well endowed would rather either comply or not fight it all the way to SCOTUS. Nor is there any equivalent of NRA in the boating community to fight such cases (not that the NRA has been very successful lately) . That's how our Constitutional rights are lost - drip by drip.

Another example would be a driver from a state which does not require any vehicle inspections "passing through" a state which does. Again passing through can be a few days or weeks of the state is large as CA or TX. Or an hour if its RI. This of course changes once the vehicle is not passing through but is lingering longer than the usually statutorily set time.

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Just to be clear:

DC boating regulations, rules for the Boater Safety Education ID Card


or the long version:

http://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/fil...ulations_0.pdf

OK it says "required to have 'A' boater safety ID card' implying that any such card will do, not necessarily a DC specific one. The online test link is the same I"m pretty sure as the one I took myself for my boater cert for Florida. I didn't see anywhere how they apply the rules for transient snowbirds from say Canada or even for transatlantic circuit ones from Europe. I'll look harder when I get time but I suspect that nobody was actually bright enough to think that scenario through. Just goes to show probably that bad legislation is worse than no legislation at all. EUrope could be excused some confusion simply because of the number of different countries and languages that it comprises. The USA surely should at least be able to cobble something through that is consistent from State to State.