Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Polux

It is tiresome to correct you. Please make a search before you post to be sure you are not posting incorrect information.

Please. Please. Read.

We're discussing typical foreign pleasure boats sailing the Med.
so this means:
- that most countries require licences for _inland_ navigation is _irelevant_
- that some countries require licences for larger or faster boats is _irelevant_

You do realise you are giving the impression of grasping at straws here?

And again you post a link that does not support your assertion: Namely this one:

http://upcommons.upc.edu/e-prints/bi...AN%20UNION.pdf

I am quite familiar with that document. It's what I base my asssertion on that the Baltic and the English Channel must be a lot busier than the Med....

[Polux]

Originally Posted by rwidman

...
It's opinion. Your opinion. "Propaganda" is nothing more than an opinion that's different from the one you have.

Not really : Propaganda: information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view.

Propaganda Is more than an opinion, it has to be biased and misleading, meaning not factual and trying to induce others in error.

I don't have a clue about what is Common Core but jwing says " Most states adopted Common Core when considered as a superior educational system. Many states are now rejecting it as the far right, who oppose most progress, have taken control in those states." and that is factual or not. If not and he is trying to mislead others than it is propaganda if correct is just information that founds an opinion: "There is a powerful portion of the USA populace who want the our people to be undereducated. Much easier to control that way."

An opinion is not necessary propaganda and in most of the cases if well founded is only a perspective of reality. Is only propaganda if it resources to false and misleading data to try to convince others to change of opinion.

Sorry, I could not help it

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by Polux

That's odd, normally the Noonsite is accurate. They give the impression the skipper of a foreign yacht does no need a licence to sail on waters under Spanish jurisdiction and that does not only contradict the information I posted (and the site that had provided it) as it is wrong.

As you have well said Spain is entitled to demand the qualification it seems adequate to all pleasure boats sailing on their waters, Spanish or foreign so just to be sure let's look at the Spanish relevant legislation, the "Real Decreto 875/2014, from 10/10/2014:

Regarding foreign yachts sailing in Spanish waters:

"Disposición adicional quinta. Exigencia de titulación para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo abanderadas en otros Estados.

1. Toda persona que gobierne una embarcación de recreo, abanderada en otros Estados, que navegue por aguas en las que España ejerza soberanía, derechos soberanos o jurisdicción deberá estar en posesión de una titulación que le habilite para realizar dicha navegación.

2. A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón;..."

As you can see it is clear on point 1 that all that sail a boat with foreign banner on Spanish waters has to have a licence that shows competence for doing the type of navigation that he is doing. On point 2 they say that the licence should be the one that provides that competence on the Skipper's country.

The point 2 raises a doubt: What happens if on the skipper's country boat licences are not mandatory? Two possible answers, those skippers will not be allowed to sail on Spanish waters (since they don't have a licence that attest their competence) or they will not need any licence. Another possibility is the Spanish authorities, on those particular cases, to establish what are the minimum certifications.

Legally speaking the point one has always precedence over point 2 so the no licence option would probably not be possible but on the Annex IX that regards valid licences issued for other states we can see that they took a similar solution as Croatia referring the accepted licences or certifications on the case a country does not have mandatory licences.

For instance in what regards UK citizens the accepted licences are the ones from the RYA starting only with COASTAL SKIPPER and going till YACHTMASTER OCEAN with commercial endorsement. The ICC is equally accepted.

I can see that lesser licences (in several countries) are not accepted (and in that regards the ICC does not make sense) and you as a Swiss citizen will need the Fähigkeitsausweis zum Führen von Sport und Vergnügungsschiffen auf See bis 300 BRT.

http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2014/10/1...2014-10344.pdf

I will post also this information on the thread you refereed since it is a relevant one.

RYA Qualifications ARE NOT LICENCES but qualifications gained after passing an educational standard, both theory and practical How many times before that is clearly understood?? Just because the wrong assumption is repeated ad infinitem don't make it correct Oh and BTW I have sailed with some pretty darned incompetent full Yachtmaster qualified people that I would never ever lend my boat to and more to the point plenty of very smart but totally unqualified ones that I would do so. Bit like the USA 'Captain's' licence (is that a licence or a qualification? It seems to me that pretty much all the checkout jockies in West Marine are Capt this or Capt that but would I dare lend/trust my boat to one on that basis , NO SIR!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

...

No, I have not, never said that Spain is entitled to demand qualifications from foreign pleasure boats. On the contrary, my contention has always been that the jurisdiction the Spanish state has over foreign flagged vessels does not reach that far.
So what the law actually contains is irrelevant.

If Spain would enact a law that says that all Dutch houses have to be yellow this law would have no effect, regardless of the wording, because the Spanish state has no jurisdiction in this matter.
It's the same with trying to enforce crew licensing of foreign flagged vessels. The Spanish state does not have the jurisdiction to demand that crew of visiting pleasure craft have certain qualifications. The existence of a law that pretends to ignore this does not change that.
[COLOR=Blue]
.....

Sometimes I think you are just trying to piss me: Spanish authorities have only jurisdiction on vessels sailing on their waters (all of them) not regarding Dutch houses, unless those are built in Spain.

Regarding that Jurisdiction and licences needed Spain, like the US, Croatia or any independent country with territorial waters can say if you can **** on their waters, if you have to use black water tanks and empty them out of their waters and can say what licence or qualification you need to sail a boat on their territorial waters.

The only exception is eventually the right of passage but we are talking about cruising on Spanish waters, not just cross them.

Originally Posted by K_V_B

...
I'm actually not a Swiss citizen (yet). I'm Belgian. I have saIled in Spain (In Galicia) and intend to go there again when I have the opportunitiy. I do have an ICC now so I'll be able to avoid lengthy debates with harbormasters.........

You have to read better the Spanish law: The ICC is not a valid licence or certification for Spanish Waters for you. For a Belgium the valid licence or certification is: BREVET VAN YACHT NAVIGATOR BREVET DE NAVIGATEUR DE YACHT

Well, if they want to be nice maybe they let you pass, but the Valid certification for a Belge is the one that is on the Annex IX and you can have the bad luck of finding a scrupulous maritime police that will take the law to the letter and demands the right certification, the one that is there, on the law, specified for your country.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Robin3

RYA Qualifications ARE NOT LICENCES but qualifications gained after passing an educational standard, both theory and practical How many times before that is clearly understood?? Just because the wrong assumption is repeated ad infinitem don't make it correct Oh and BTW I have sailed with some pretty darned incompetent full Yachtmaster qualified people that I would never ever lend my boat to and more to the point plenty of very smart but totally unqualified ones that I would do so. Bit like the USA 'Captain's' licence (is that a licence or a qualification? It seems to me that pretty much all the checkout jockies in West Marine are Capt this or Capt that but would I dare lend/trust my boat to one on that basis , NO SIR!

Of course not, they are certifications. They would be licences if they were official. And what is the difference between graduated licences like the ones that they have in Spain? Just that the Spanish are official, meaning state approved and mandatory, they are also "qualifications gained after passing an educational standard, both theory and practical". Basically they certify that the owner has those qualifications.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Polux

That's why those countries were the first to feel the need to demand licences to all skippers of pleasure boats sailing on their waters.

Completely unsubstantiated, but off the cuff i would say there are more local sailing boats with skippers who really don't have a clue around Spain or Portugal than there are in the likes of UK or Holland.

Licensing doesn't really seem to work in that respect.

The reason why those two countries require licenses has little to do with any rational thoughts about sailing competence, but much to do with governmental culture.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Please. Please. Read.

We're discussing typical foreign pleasure boats sailing the Med.
so this means:
- that most countries require licences for _inland_ navigation is _irelevant_
- that some countries require licences for larger or faster boats is _irelevant_

You do realise you are giving the impression of grasping at straws here?
..

No we are discussing boat licences particularly in Europe. Most of the boats sold today for cruising are over 40ft, many over 50ft so I don't think that we are talking about straws when you omitted that all motor boats in France need a licence (a graduated one), that in Sweden boats over 40fts need a licence and that in Holland and Dennmark yachts over 50ft also need a licence.

And I don't see irrelevant that most countries require a licence for inland waters: the reason is the same, the needed to warrant competence and to know the "rules of the road" from a skipper. Inland water ways are just tighter and probably the need to warrant that competence bigger to prevent accidents but that's the same principle and in accordance with what I have said: the need of licence increases with crowded waters.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by conachair

Completely unsubstantiated, but off the cuff i would say there are more local sailing boats with skippers who really don't have a clue around Spain or Portugal than there are in the likes of UK or Holland.

Licensing doesn't really seem to work in that respect.

The reason why those two countries require licenses has little to do with any rational thoughts about sailing competence, but much to do with governmental culture.

Well that is an opinion, I mean regarding Spanish sailors. Never noticed that but have already to help two British Skippers in Spain not to mention one that Portuguese fishermen had fished out 50nm of the coast without engine and not knowing very well how to sail. In fact he was sailing with the Atlas of his son as charts on a recovered WWII torpedo boat with masts and sails.

A very nice guy and later a friend. He was here recovering repairing the boat almost for a year and then sailed out to Brazil...apparently lost at sea, since we never got notices from him again (and he was supposed to write to assure us that all was OK)

If there are sailors like that away from UK I wonder how they are around UK. I remember the story of a guy that was rescued 7 times or it was more? But of course your experience is certainly different from mine in what regards Spain.

I really find funny and odd that on the pole a bigger percentage sees the necessity of a licence and the positive aspects of the mandatory knowledge that stands behind it while the vast majority that post on this thread see licences as useless.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Polux

Most of the boats sold today for cruising are over 40ft, many over 50ft so

I seriously doubt that.





Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I seriously doubt that.
..

After all it seems you don't sail much on the med otherwise you would have noticed. Older boats are smaller, newer boats are bigger. Many couples that retire and live the spring and summer on a boat are buying 50ft boats and bigger. Today a 40ft sailboat is a small cruising boat.

Look at the Oceanis, Sense, Jeanneau, Hanse and Bavaria lines: The bigger cruiser on the line have becoming bigger and bigger (growing rapidly in size to 60ft and over) and the smaller one has also become bigger and they are practically abandoning cruisers with less than 30ft. Out of racing you will see rapidly the smaller size of mass production boats going to 34/35ft. That is a rather small cruising boat today in what regards the new market.

[jwing]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I don't know where you get this idea of current education such as Common Core being great or opposed by conservatives. I live in probably one of the more "progressive" and supposedly better educated suburbs in the city of Boston which is supposedly a hub for US education, etc. My g/f lives in another such highly regarded educationwise suburb and her kid goes to public school there. And as do many of my friends' children of grade school and high school school age. And I can't believe the crap that passes for education lately. I am so glad that I had not been educated in this manner when I went to high school in the 70s. I came out knowing history of US well, both official version and less well known real history. I was also taught English language well enough, although it is my 2nd language, so that by 10th grade I already was testing at the level of 3rd year of college English. Most of today's educators, themselves semi-educated on latest propaganda by the Nat'l Teachers' Union and retained not due to the quality of their teaching but due to the union seniority, political correctness and other "progressive" ideals, themselves couldn't pass an 8th grade math test from the late 19th century log cabin school. Oh, yeah, "they teach to think", so much so that today's average college graduate is not even up to snuff in his knowledge as a high school v graduate was only 50 years ago. And more than 50% of those attending college today wouldn't qualify for trade school placement just 50-60 years ago. And no, playing video games well does not count as a "learned skill". Being able to think is like learing how to be an architect. But you can't become good at it unless you master the knowledge of the bricks or otehr builiding materials you'll be working with. And that's what they don't teach anymore going right into why you'll be designing a building or who should be living in one and discarding "the bricks". That's why for the past 20-30 years we have not seen too many US born grad students teaching in math or physics departments of the universities, as well as very few nonimmigrant children winning math or science comptetitions, etc. But they all sure know for a fact that Obama is good and Bush is bad (although personally I don't disagree with the 2nd half of the statement). And that's to me is the "common core" in one sentence.

Well, up to your last two sentences, you were doing OK. I would guess that very few people would argue against you. Your well-founded rant is EXACTLY WHY COMMON CORE WAS ADOPTED BY 44 STATES! Common Core has been around since just 2010, so we are not yet seeing the long term benefits (or detriment).

I have an anecdote of my own: When I was a student at UFLorida in the 1970s, I met an intelligent guy who grew up in the Florida Panhandle. He was a smart guy, but before UF would accept him, he had to pass a series of remedial English courses at the local junior college. I asked him, "Joe, English is your native language; how in the world can a smart, 20-year-old, guy like you need to take remedial English courses?" His reply: "I learned English from my parents and teachers in my home town. The quality of my primary and high school education sucked because it was run by rednecks who hired other rednecks, none who really cared about educating." Joe's story is another perfect example of why Common Core is a good thing. It's also an example of why some educators are against it. It forces them to up their game to a level of professionalism that our kids deserve.

Since I feel like I'm arguing for Common Core with people who won't even read the Wikipedia entry, and this is not the subject of this thread (I know...I started the drift), I'm out. Have fun getting the last words in.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Polux

N Propaganda Is more than an opinion, it has to be biased and misleading, meaning not factual and trying to induce others in error................

And that defines the post I was referring to.

[SkiprJohn]

I think the original question was "do you think recreational boats should be licensed?"

In Hawaii all boats must be registered if they carry an engine and are 10 feet or longer. They aren't licensed. Operators are required to have completed a training course if they are operating a boat with 10hp or more power. They are not licensed.

Would licensing help? My answer is, "no." It would help the coffers of the state but it wouldn't help safety.

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by Polux

After all it seems you don't sail much on the med otherwise you would have noticed. Older boats are smaller, newer boats are bigger. Many couples that retire and live the spring and summer on a boat are buying 50ft boats and bigger. Today a 40ft sailboat is a small cruising boat.

Look at the Oceanis, Sense, Jeanneau, Hanse and Bavaria lines: The bigger cruiser on the line have becoming bigger and bigger (growing rapidly in size to 60ft and over) and the smaller one has also become bigger and they are practically abandoning cruisers with less than 30ft. Out of racing you will see rapidly the smaller size of mass production boats going to 34/35ft. That is a rather small cruising boat today in what regards the new market.

As someone Captain Polux who claims to know everything there is to know about the need for licences in European waters and seemingly sails there or has done, may I please ask what licences you personally actually hold that allow you to sail in Portugal, spain,Italy and Croatia? What country is your boat registered in and under what flag? I am thinking there must be some place I never knew about that holds the answer to all cruiser's dreams, Is there?

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I could be wrong but isn't common core a more PC name for dumb down learning?

dumbed down learning with a focus on 'social agenda', to be accurate. it's the kind of learning where it doesn't matter if you get the answer of 4 when you multiply 2 X 2 as long as you can show how you got the answer.

the idea is supposedly that it makes you think, on your own, to get the answer (even if it's wrong); teaching you logic. it was always my assumption, however, that logic and reasoning must be based on actual fact in order to be of use.

although i could be wrong, i think that, if you multiply 2 X 2 and get anything other than 4, you are wrong. and, i also think that you won't be able to design or build much of anything if your math skills are bogus, like that.