Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Polux

And what I can say to this? Except that you don't know what you are talking about:

A licence is required to sail on the waters over the jurisdiction of Portugal, Spain, Italy, Croatia, Slovenia and Greece, not only to their citizens but to all cruising boats sailing there no matter the flag or nationality.

Sorry, but I do know what I'm talking about. From personal experience even.
And this has been discussed at length here already in different threads.

And pay attention when you post links to prove your assertions, as the content might not be supportive of your claims.

For example:

Frequently Asked Questions regarding yacht charter Croatia

I never disputed here that countries have the right to set requirements for boats under their own flag.The link you give here mentions the requirements to sail a Croatian flagged ship. And it mentions:
"According to Croatian Maritime Law you should be in possession of the license for operating of the pleasure craft that is issued by the state authority of the country that you are coming from."

So what do you do when you come from a country that does not issue operating licences? Well, my personal experience is that in that case you are allowed to sail the boat without a license...

Earlier you made claims that large numbers of Dutch and UK boats sailed the MED. I'm sure most of them are sailed by skippers that are quite knowledgeable, but don't have any official "license".

I also never disputed that countries have the right to set requirements for their residents. That is what the other links you posted all seem to mention. Like this:
"Anyone resident in Spain must have a Spanish recognised qualification, the título de recreo."

Visiting yachts however don't fall under this requirement. And this has already been discussed at length here.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Sorry, but I do know what I'm talking about. From personal experience even.
And this has been discussed at length here already in different threads.

And pay attention when you post links to prove your assertions, as the content might not be supportive of your claims.

I have sailed as a skipper on all those countries recently and in all of them a licence and a radio certification is demanded and on most of them insurance also. That is what is said on the several threads about the subject.

That's true that for now they accepted as licence the ICC even if some of those countries do not recognize it.

Originally Posted by K_V_B

For example:

I never disputed here that countries have the right to set requirements for boats under their own flag.The link you give here mentions the requirements to sail a Croatian flagged ship. And it mentions:
"According to Croatian Maritime Law you should be in possession of the license for operating of the pleasure craft that is issued by the state authority of the country that you are coming from."

So what do you do when you come from a country that does not issue operating licences?

Has a skipper you should know that. They accept several certifications on those case, like RYA and ASA certification. Here you have a not actualized list of licences that are accepted in Croatia (official government document).

http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...%2019-8_14.pdf

Originally Posted by K_V_B

"Anyone resident in Spain must have a Spanish recognised qualification, the título de recreo."

Visiting yachts however don't fall under this requirement. And this has already been discussed at length here.

Yes that is true, like in any of those countries were citizens have to have the proper national licences, licences from other countries, RYA and ASA qualifications and even ICC (International certificate of competence) will be accepted for Skippers of foreign yachts.

But a licence or a recognized certification is needed to sail in Spain, even if your boat is not Spanish.

As I said in case of trouble the ICC can be a bad choice in some of those countries because even if they closed the eyes and let it pass the document is not officially recognized as a valid licence.

What the Spanish law says regarding the skippers of foreign boats and their needed licences is:

"A sailing permit or licence (título de recreo) is not needed to sail the following vessels during daylight hours in Spanish waters:

Motor boats up to 4 meters in length and with a maximum power of 10 Kw (13 CV)
Sailing boats up to 5 metres in length
Kayaks, canoes and pedal boats and boats with motors of under 3.5 Kw
...
All other vessels may only be handled by person holding an appropriate licence. Failure to have a licence may result in the vessel being confiscated or a hefty fine.

Some foreign boating permits are recognised in Spain, including the US Coast Guard Licence, the RYA Yacht Master Certification and the International Certificate of Competence....Although a Yacht Masters certificate (and translation into Spanish) or an ICC (International Certificate of Competence) are considered sufficient proof of competence to skipper a UK (or some other) flagged vessel, the ICC is not a recognised qualification for Spanish flagged vessels."

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by first wind

agreed. (although, from what i've seen, i wouldn't say common core is a solution to that but another push in the wrong direction.)

I could be wrong but isn't common core a more PC name for dumb down learning?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I know of:
France
The UK
Ireland
Belgium
The Netherlands
Denmark
Sweden
Finland.

That's 8 EU countries, all with sizeable pleasure fleets (Sweden's the biggest in the EU) and all on very busy waterways that don't require licenses...

It is tiresome to correct you. Please make a search before you post to be sure you are not posting incorrect information.

In France motor boats or motor-sailors need a licence (graduated licence), only sailing boats with auxiliary engines don't need a licence on Ocean waters. Sailboats need a licence to sail inland waters and channels.

In UK a licence is needed to Inland waterways.

In Belgium a licence is needed on Inland waterways for boats over 50ft or able to go faster than 10.8k.

In Netherlands a licence is needed for boats over 50ft or able to go faster then 10.8k.

In Denmark Boats over 50ft in length must have a captain who has a Yacht Skipper 3 Certificate of Competency.

In Sweden a licence is needed for boats over 40ft (12m) or with more 13.12ft (4m) of beam.

In Finland no boat licence needed but one member of the crew must have a radio operator’s certificate of competence.

Sailing & Boating in the Netherlands - AngloINFO South Holland, in South Holland (Netherlands)
Conduite d’un bateau de plaisance sur les voies intérieures - Navigation - SPF Mobilité
http://upcommons.upc.edu/e-prints/bi...AN%20UNION.pdf
Sailing in Denmark - AngloINFO Copenhagen, in Metropolitan Copenhagen (Denmark)
Finland — Noonsite

Europe has about 50 countries and besides the ones you refereed many others with extensive coasts, like Norway, Russia, Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Croatia and the general situation regarding boat licences is this one:

" Boating licences are mandatory almost everywhere in Europe. Even in such countries as do not demand an official licence, such as Denmark and Sweden, you should nevertheless have one, should you have an accident the boatman has to provide evidence of his/her capabilities. Otherwise the latter can loose his/her insurance cover for reason of gross negligence. In the "Licence clause" of insurance contracts the formulation is usually the insurance only pays when the batsman has a certificate of qualifications for the respective grounds as prescribed according to the local regulations."

Führerschein

Efforts are being made by the EC regarding a common ground for approved boat licences, like it was made years ago with car driver's licences and some studies have been made:

http://upcommons.upc.edu/e-prints/bi...AN%20UNION.pdf

But nothing for the near future even if it will be sure that someday there will be made something similar to what was made for cars and airplane licences in what regards what is recognized and not by EC.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Polux

I have sailed as a skipper on all those countries recently and in all of them a licence and a radio certification is demanded and on most of them insurance also. That is what is said on the several threads about the subject.

So an official demanded to see a license and you showed it? That is not a proof that one is required, as an alternative explanation is that many officials don't really know the law they are supposed to enforce.
Apparently that is not uncommon in those areas. As i read on noonsite:
"Although a Certificate of Competence (ICC) is not required, many Spanish Harbour Masters believe it is"

Has a skipper you should know that. They accept several certifications on those case, like RYA and ASA certification. Here you have a not actualized list of licences that are accepted in Croatia (official government document).

http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...%2019-8_14.pdf

I am familiar with that document. I've chartered yachts quite a few times in Croatia.
All those boats were Croation flagged. I don't dispute that the Croatian state has the authority to set the terms for Croatian flagged boats.
However, my experience has always been that the law was interpreted as "if you are allowed to sail this in your home country we will let you sail it".

It so happens that I had been calling the transport department in Belgium quite regularly asking them when they would finally introduce the ICC, and at one time they just mailed me a letter I could show (which I did). At another time the official I got on the line suggested I just fake a license.

Charter agents in Belgium would often just give you a letter on the letterhead of a yachtclub that you could show in Greece or Croatia to satisfy officials.

Eventually Belgium started to issue ICC's as well, and I got one as soon as I could.

But a licence or a recognized certification is needed to sail in Spain, even if your boat is not Spanish.

We've been over that in other threads.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post759284

[jwing]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I could be wrong but isn't common core a more PC name for dumb down learning?

Nope, it's the opposite. And that's the main reason conservative people are told to resist it. There is a powerful portion of the USA populace who want the our people to be undereducated. Much easier to control that way.

Take the time to do a little research on Common Core. If you are reading a politically motivated website, you will not be getting close to the facts. Common Core was created by educators who are motivated to bring the elementary and secondary education of USA kids up to the level that kids in other countries enjoy. It teaches kids how to think, not what to think (also scary for many people). It teaches kids how arithmetic in their heads instead of needing calculators or paper and pen. This is brain training.

The Federal Government has nothing to do with Common Core; there are no mandates requiring its adoption, and to imply that Common Core came out the Obama administration is quite simply an outright lie. Most states adopted Common Core when considered as a superior educational system. Many states are now rejecting it as the far right, who oppose most progress, have taken control in those states. The propaganda against Common Core is so far off the mark that it would be comical if not for the number of people that actually believe it without the least bit of knowledge about what they are against. That is scary. And it is all politically motivated - that is evil.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by jwing

Nope, it's the opposite. And that's the main reason conservative people are told to resist it. There is a powerful portion of the USA populace who want the our people to be undereducated. Much easier to control that way.

Take the time to do a little research on Common Core. If you are reading a politically motivated website, you will not be getting close to the facts. Common Core was created by educators who are motivated to bring the elementary and secondary education of USA kids up to the level that kids in other countries enjoy. It teaches kids how to think, not what to think (also scary for many people). It teaches kids how arithmetic in their heads instead of needing calculators or paper and pen. This is brain training.

The Federal Government has nothing to do with Common Core; there are no mandates requiring its adoption, and to imply that Common Core came out the Obama administration is quite simply an outright lie. Most states adopted Common Core when considered as a superior educational system. Many states are now rejecting it as the far right, who oppose most progress, have taken control in those states. The propaganda against Common Core is so far off the mark that it would be comical if not for the number of people that actually believe it without the least bit of knowledge about what they are against. That is scary. And it is all politically motivated - that is evil.

No propaganda in this post!

[jwing]

If anything in my post is not factual, please point it out specifically.

[admiralslater]

Canada has a country wide requirement to have an operators card for motorized vessels. It was brought on with the advent of PWC which for almost no money could get to speeds that required lots of skill . these vessels brought lots of untrained people on the water . I say untrained because before that most people gradually worked their way up to boat of this power . the test costs about 60 $ and can be taken at boat shows or online and every test is somewhat different to try and reduce cheating .It only takes about half an hour. They are good for life ,and test for simple rules of the road and buoys . A work mate of mine got a pwc many years ago ,I asked her about who had right of way in a simple situation and she answered the bigger boat . that is why I am in favour of at least basic testing
David

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

Canada has a country wide requirement to have an operators card for motorized vessels. It was brought on with the advent of PWC which for almost no money could get to speeds that required lots of skill . these vessels brought lots of untrained people on the water . I say untrained because before that most people gradually worked their way up to boat of this power . the test costs about 60 $ and can be taken at boat shows or online and every test is somewhat different to try and reduce cheating .It only takes about half an hour. They are good for life ,and test for simple rules of the road and buoys . A work mate of mine got a pwc many years ago ,I asked her about who had right of way in a simple situation and she answered the bigger boat . that is why I am in favour of at least basic testing
David

Sadly an opinion expressed by many people who think that is what should be the case not what actually is in the rules, doesn't make it right but to many it seems logical when it really is not sense at all.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

So an official demanded to see a license and you showed it? That is not a proof that one is required, as an alternative explanation is that many officials don't really know the law they are supposed to enforce.
Apparently that is not uncommon in those areas. As i read on noonsite:
"Although a Certificate of Competence (ICC) is not required, many Spanish Harbour Masters believe it is"
,,,
We've been over that in other threads.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post759284

That's odd, normally the Noonsite is accurate. They give the impression the skipper of a foreign yacht does no need a licence to sail on waters under Spanish jurisdiction and that does not only contradict the information I posted (and the site that had provided it) as it is wrong.

As you have well said Spain is entitled to demand the qualification it seems adequate to all pleasure boats sailing on their waters, Spanish or foreign so just to be sure let's look at the Spanish relevant legislation, the "Real Decreto 875/2014, from 10/10/2014:

Regarding foreign yachts sailing in Spanish waters:

"Disposición adicional quinta. Exigencia de titulación para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo abanderadas en otros Estados.

1. Toda persona que gobierne una embarcación de recreo, abanderada en otros Estados, que navegue por aguas en las que España ejerza soberanía, derechos soberanos o jurisdicción deberá estar en posesión de una titulación que le habilite para realizar dicha navegación.

2. A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón;..."

As you can see it is clear on point 1 that all that sail a boat with foreign banner on Spanish waters has to have a licence that shows competence for doing the type of navigation that he is doing. On point 2 they say that the licence should be the one that provides that competence on the Skipper's country.

The point 2 raises a doubt: What happens if on the skipper's country boat licences are not mandatory? Two possible answers, those skippers will not be allowed to sail on Spanish waters (since they don't have a licence that attest their competence) or they will not need any licence. Another possibility is the Spanish authorities, on those particular cases, to establish what are the minimum certifications.

Legally speaking the point one has always precedence over point 2 so the no licence option would probably not be possible but on the Annex IX that regards valid licences issued for other states we can see that they took a similar solution as Croatia referring the accepted licences or certifications on the case a country does not have mandatory licences.

For instance in what regards UK citizens the accepted licences are the ones from the RYA starting only with COASTAL SKIPPER and going till YACHTMASTER OCEAN with commercial endorsement. The ICC is equally accepted.

I can see that lesser licences (in several countries) are not accepted (and in that regards the ICC does not make sense) and you as a Swiss citizen will need the Fähigkeitsausweis zum Führen von Sport und Vergnügungsschiffen auf See bis 300 BRT.

http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2014/10/1...2014-10344.pdf

I will post also this information on the thread you refereed since it is a relevant one.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by jwing

Nope, it's the opposite. And that's the main reason conservative people are told to resist it. There is a powerful portion of the USA populace who want the our people to be undereducated. Much easier to control that way.

Take the time to do a little research on Common Core. If you are reading a politically motivated website, you will not be getting close to the facts. Common Core was created by educators who are motivated to bring the elementary and secondary education of USA kids up to the level that kids in other countries enjoy. It teaches kids how to think, not what to think (also scary for many people). It teaches kids how arithmetic in their heads instead of needing calculators or paper and pen. This is brain training.

The Federal Government has nothing to do with Common Core; there are no mandates requiring its adoption, and to imply that Common Core came out the Obama administration is quite simply an outright lie. Most states adopted Common Core when considered as a superior educational system. Many states are now rejecting it as the far right, who oppose most progress, have taken control in those states. The propaganda against Common Core is so far off the mark that it would be comical if not for the number of people that actually believe it without the least bit of knowledge about what they are against. That is scary. And it is all politically motivated - that is evil.

I don't know where you get this idea of current education such as Common Core being great or opposed by conservatives. I live in probably one of the more "progressive" and supposedly better educated suburbs in the city of Boston which is supposedly a hub for US education, etc. My g/f lives in another such highly regarded educationwise suburb and her kid goes to public school there. And as do many of my friends' children of grade school and high school school age. And I can't believe the crap that passes for education lately. I am so glad that I had not been educated in this manner when I went to high school in the 70s. I came out knowing history of US well, both official version and less well known real history. I was also taught English language well enough, although it is my 2nd language, so that by 10th grade I already was testing at the level of 3rd year of college English. Most of today's educators, themselves semi-educated on latest propaganda by the Nat'l Teachers' Union and retained not due to the quality of their teaching but due to the union seniority, political correctness and other "progressive" ideals, themselves couldn't pass an 8th grade math test from the late 19th century log cabin school. Oh, yeah, "they teach to think", so much so that today's average college graduate is not even up to snuff in his knowledge as a high school v graduate was only 50 years ago. And more than 50% of those attending college today wouldn't qualify for trade school placement just 50-60 years ago. And no, playing video games well does not count as a "learned skill". Being able to think is like learing how to be an architect. But you can't become good at it unless you master the knowledge of the bricks or otehr builiding materials you'll be working with. And that's what they don't teach anymore going right into why you'll be designing a building or who should be living in one and discarding "the bricks". That's why for the past 20-30 years we have not seen too many US born grad students teaching in math or physics departments of the universities, as well as very few nonimmigrant children winning math or science comptetitions, etc. But they all sure know for a fact that Obama is good and Bush is bad (although personally I don't disagree with the 2nd half of the statement). And that's to me is the "common core" in one sentence.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by jwing

If anything in my post is not factual, please point it out specifically.

"Most states adopted Common Core when considered as a superior educational system. Many states are now rejecting it as the far right, who oppose most progress, have taken control in those states. The propaganda against Common Core is so far off the mark that it would be comical if not for the number of people that actually believe it without the least bit of knowledge about what they are against. That is scary. And it is all politically motivated - that is evil."

It's opinion. Your opinion. "Propaganda" is nothing more than an opinion that's different from the one you have.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Polux

That's odd, normally the Noonsite is accurate. They give the impression the skipper of a foreign yacht does no need a licence to sail on waters under Spanish jurisdiction and that does not only contradict the information I posted (and the site that had provided it) as it is wrong.

I do think they are correct though...

As you have well said Spain is entitled to demand the qualification it seems adequate to all pleasure boats sailing on their waters, Spanish or foreign so just to be sure let's look at the Spanish relevant legislation, the "Real Decreto 875/2014, from 10/10/2014:

No, I have not, never said that Spain is entitled to demand qualifications from foreign pleasure boats. On the contrary, my contention has always been that the jurisdiction the Spanish state has over foreign flagged vessels does not reach that far.
So what the law actually contains is irrelevant.

If Spain would enact a law that says that all Dutch houses have to be yellow this law would have no effect, regardless of the wording, because the Spanish state has no jurisdiction in this matter.
It's the same with trying to enforce crew licensing of foreign flagged vessels. The Spanish state does not have the jurisdiction to demand that crew of visiting pleasure craft have certain qualifications. The existence of a law that pretends to ignore this does not change that.

I can see that lesser licences (in several countries) are not accepted (and in that regards the ICC does not make sense) and you as a Swiss citizen will need the Fähigkeitsausweis zum Führen von Sport und Vergnügungsschiffen auf See bis 300 BRT.
.

I'm actually not a Swiss citizen (yet). I'm Belgian. I have saIled in Spain (In Galicia) and intend to go there again when I have the opportunitiy. I do have an ICC now so I'll be able to avoid lengthy debates with harbormasters....

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks. Good analysis and assumption; however, there was a tad of truth in it. I designed Exxon's corporate HQs in NYC in the early 70s. Back then their CEO only made 100x what the average Joe made. What is it now? Sure, they always lobbied, but it's obscene now. So anything that would dent their customers' use of their product (not unrealistic, but even if it was in the public good?) wouldn't obtain their support. Would it?

Originally Posted by first wind

it is popular to claim the oil compamies are evil. after all, they must be evil since they earn a profit by mining, refining, and selling us a product that we need yet can not obtain for ourselves. of course, there are two other alternatives. we could just not have any petrolium products or they could 'act in the public good' and donate their wealth, time, and effort to give us all the oil based products we need; gaining no income for themselves.

of course, by this way of thinking, every business owner or employee, from fast food on up, is also evil because they also earn money in exchange for a service which they provide. also evil must be manufacturers of any products and providers of any services who make any money from their products and services.

since such an assumption is laughable, i can only assume sarcasm on your part.