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View Poll Results: Should recreational boaters be required to get a license?
Yes. 53 31.36%
No. 80 47.34%
Only if they operate near commercial traffic. 1 0.59%
Only if the boat is over x feet or x horsepower. 40 23.67%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 169. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-04-2015, 08:48   #376
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

With being on the water all the time and teaching it quite bit...to me it's not ignorant boaters that are a concern as much as arrogant boaters that drive anything from rowboats to cruise ships.

A huge number of "experienced" and "trained" boaters still do many of the wrong things cause they just don't care...not that they don't know.

Most of the time I see the inexperienced and untrained as overly cautious and go slow or slow down more than they have to.

Not much of a threat tied up or going slow most of the time. The arrogant know stop/full speed or I have the right of way because of "ME", not the COLREGS.

Nope.... the course I taught and was structured very STRICTLY and audited by the State Police. It really didn't pass much info at all and little was absorbed late at night in 2-4 hr course sessions.

I still thing its the arrogant and manifestly unsafe that are always the problem.

The best thing as I posted before...at least its something the legal system can penalize you with by taking away that privilege for being arrogant or reckless.
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Old 10-04-2015, 10:38   #377
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
You are on a rant and not thinking clearly. The point in testing and licensing (which is just proof that you passed the test and nothing more) is to make the water safer for everyone. This includes you and me. It means the other boater knows which side of you he should be passing on and when he/she is the stand on or give way vessel. It means he/she knows when to display an anchor light and where not to anchor.
The question is wether the stated aims of mandatory licenses will actually be achieved. I've for example never seen so many yachts showing the wrong lights as in Croatia, where supposedly everybody should have a licence... In the Netherlands, where hardly anybody has a license I don't see many problems. In spite of this "laissez faire" attitude most boaters I encounter there are competent. There are of course a few exceptions.

So the question is not whether making boating safer is a good thing or not. Those skeptical of mandatory licenses mostly believe (as I do) that the problem is exaggerated, and the solution inefficient and cumbersome. Nobody is against making boating safer.

Quote:
I'm sure you could remember times when you have been put in danger by ignorant boaters. As a boater, why would you not want other boaters to be as educated and safe as you are?
I've never had myself put in danger by ignorant boaters. I've seen others put themselves in danger through ignorance. But I don't think licenses will solve that.
I once saw a brand new motor yacht hit the underside of a bridge at full speed. It wasn't pretty. It was also a boat for which a license was compulsory. The license apparently didn't cure the skippers' idiocy.
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Old 10-04-2015, 10:55   #378
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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Originally Posted by first wind View Post

"
Propaganda is information that is not impartial and used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively (perhaps lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or using loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information presented............."
Sounds suspiciously like a news (sic) network that claims it is fair & balanced.
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Old 10-04-2015, 13:34   #379
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Sometimes I am wondering the same.
My contention is that the Spanish state doesn't have full jurisdiction over foreign flagged boats. You can pass whatever law you want, if you don't have jurisdiction it's moot.
...
What can I say if you don't know the basis of international law in what regards territorial waters? If by Spanish law you need a licence to cruise your boat on their waters and you are sailing the boat without it they can arrest your boat till you find a qualified skipper to sail it. Then they will release it after you pay the fine. That is valid not only to Spain but to any other country with territorial waters.

That is not different that would happen to a cargo or a cruise ship that has a captain that does not comply with the needed requirements (licences) to sail that ship on their territorial waters (out of free passage). If they found out the Ship will be arrested, the captain and possibly the ship owner will be finned.

The only exception is the right of innocent passage that does not apply if a boat is cruising, fishing or enters Spanish Ports or Marinas and even in what regards innocent sea passage there are international rules and regulations (that don't apply to pleasure boats).

Territorial Sea
Each coastal State may claim a territorial sea that extends seaward up to 12 nautical miles (nm) from its baselines. The coastal State exercises sovereignty over its territorial sea, the air space above it, and the seabed and subsoil beneath it. Foreign flag ships enjoy the right of innocent passage while transiting the territorial sea subject to laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State that are in conformity with the Law of the Sea Convention and other rules of international law relating to such passage.


NOAA Office of General Counsel International Section - Ballast Water - Maritime Zones and Boundaries

Sovereignty means absolute power.

Out of innocent passage a country has full jurisdiction over his territorial waters. Jurisdiction in simple terms means: power, authority, control and in what regards control it is included the right to implement the laws he sees necessary to warrant it.

On territorial waters, out of right of innocent passage, a Country has the right to establish the rules and take the measures needed to have them respected and those rules don't apply only to the boats or ships with the banner of that country, but to all boats and ships on their territorial waters (out of innocent passage).

You have it here on the article 25 of the UN convention on the law of the sea, subscribed by almost all states

Article25
Rights of protection of the coastal State

1. The coastal State may take the necessary steps in its territorial sea to prevent passage which is not innocent.

2. In the case of ships proceeding to internal waters or a call at a port facility outside internal waters, the coastal State also has the right to take the necessary steps to prevent any breach of the conditions to which admission of those ships to internal waters or such a call is subject.


UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA
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Old 10-04-2015, 14:09   #380
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

One of my maybe misplaced beliefs is: a cruising sailboat shouldn't argue with a country's Naval vessels by using words of "law"!
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:04   #381
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
...
You know what you get when you pass the "Yacht navigator" exam in Belgium? you get a nice diploma, a bit larger than A4 size, on embossed paper that you can frame and hang on the wall.

I lost mine in a fire, and when I inquired if I could have it replaced I was told that I couldn't have it replaced, as it was just a nice diploma, not a document with any legal meaning whatsoever.
Which is why I can't show it to any authorities.
.....
Funny we have talked about Propaganda regarding another topic. You give the idea that the Licence of Yacht Navigator is just a diploma that does not stand for any knowledge and that is not true and misleading. I would call that propaganda. Why did they would not pass another copy to you if it was just a piece of paper?

What the Belgium law says about the course is:

"At sea
The sea certificate is not made compulsory in Belgium. The owner of a pleasure craft flying the Belgian flag does not need such a certificate to steer his/her pleasure craft at sea. However, Belgium has two official but non-compulsory certificates for sea sailing: the “certificate of yachtsman” for coastal navigation and the “certificate of yacht navigator” for ocean navigation. Both certificates are in Belgium acknowledged as equivalent to the general steering certificate. "


http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/bin...467-201342.pdf

So you have two graduated sailing courses that are not mandatory for Belgium but can be on other countries.

They just give you a diploma and you do have not to pass any test? What sense would that have? In fact on the official government site you have the books that contain the information you need to obtain the theoretical knowledge for passing the tests for those licences. In what regards yacht navigator (Navigateur de Yacht) we are talking about this books:

"Les règlements de navigation" (Rules of navigation)
"Cours de navigation" (Navigation Course)

There are off course sailing schools that prepare sailors to pass those examinations. Here you have one that offers a 105 hour course in 35 sessions to prepare for the Licence of Navigator de yacht.

105 hours to just pass a test to have a Diploma to hang on the hall?
Ligue Maritime Belge // Ecole de voile - permis côtier - permis hauturier

Here another school that shows you the content of the needed program:

http://www.bryc.be/site/documents/BR...-2014-2015.pdf

That includes knowledge of different matters and you can only have it after having taken the previous course "Licence of Yachtman" ( Brevet de Yachtman)

Take also on consideration that regarding sailing territorial Spanish waters they only accept the second grade, Yacht Navigator and exclude the first grade, Yachtman. That was what I had already refereed regarding Spanish authorities not accepting basic courses for skipping a yacht. They don't accept also the most basic RYA courses for UK sailors (but accept ICC and that does not make sense).

http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2014/10/1...2014-10344.pdf de Yachtman).
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:26   #382
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

As someone, Captain Polux, who claims to know everything there is to know about the need for licences in European waters and seemingly sails there or has done, may I please ask what licences you personally actually hold that allow you to sail in Portugal, spain,Italy and Croatia? What country is your boat registered in and under what flag? I am thinking there must be some place I never knew about that holds the answer to all cruiser's dreams, Is there?

I asked this once before but somehow missed your answer.
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:16   #383
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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Take also on consideration that regarding sailing territorial Spanish waters they only accept the second grade, Yacht Navigator and exclude the first grade, Yachtman.
I would suggest that in the real world, the requirement for some piece of paper by a guy in a uniform in Spain has much more to do with how bad a mood his wife was in over breakfast than any unlikely knowledge he might have of the actual rules.
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:50   #384
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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Originally Posted by Robin3 View Post
As someone, Captain Polux, who claims to know everything there is to know about the need for licences in European waters and seemingly sails there or has done, may I please ask what licences you personally actually hold that allow you to sail in Portugal, spain,Italy and Croatia? What country is your boat registered in and under what flag?

I asked this once before but somehow missed your answer.
Actually we only use the term Captain for the Navy and Merchant ships. Regarding fishing and recreational crafts other titles are used. Regarding recreational the title is Patrão.

I do not claim anything, much less to know all about European recreational licences. There are about 50 European countries and I do know about some. For what I do not know I can research internet, having the advantage of being able to read several European languages.

The licence I have is the last grade Portuguese recreational licence, Patrão de Alto Mar that is recognized on most countries and allows me to sail without limitations any size or type of recreational boat. The Portuguese sailing grades are very similar to the Spanish ones as well as the needed knowledge for each one.

My boat has an Italian flag.

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Originally Posted by Robin3 View Post
I am thinking there must be some place I never knew about that holds the answer to all cruiser's dreams, Is there?
I don't understand what you mean with this statement. I don't sail on Portuguese waters (that I know very well) for some years, having been on the last decade mostly exploring the Med that I do now relativelly well.

Holding a licence only means that someone have some knowledge regarding the rules of the sea, safety and seamanship (depending in extension with the grade of the course) and even if some nautical mileage and practical experience is required between some of the licences, that would not made me or anyone else holding those licences (or any RYA certification) a experienced sailor.

For that many miles of experience as a skipper on different conditions are required too. As it was said before, licences regards only a minimum knowledge and training that some countries require to sail a recreational boat with some characteristics in some places or in all places.

Regarding cruiser's dreams I do not know, particularly yours. Regarding mines that are being fulfilled: Each year I sail about 3/4000nm cruising on different med regions. This year it would be the Corinth Golf, the Sporades, the North Coast of Greece and who knows? maybe Istanbul and back to Rome.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:05   #385
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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I would suggest that in the real world, the requirement for some piece of paper by a guy in a uniform in Spain has much more to do with how bad a mood his wife was in over breakfast than any unlikely knowledge he might have of the actual rules.
The Spanish Policia Maritima knows very well what are the licences that are required or not since they are on the Annex IX (Pag. 83094) of this legal document that is a basic work tool for them:

http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2014/10/1...2014-10344.pdf

But I agree with you that normally they would facilitate and if some certification or licence is showed they will tend to not look further...but if they are pissed or if you piss them and they don't accept a certification or licence that is not on the list of international legally accepted licences and certificates....you are probably in a very nasty situation since even the superiors, face to a formal process, have to play formally according with the law.

The same can be said regarding other countries, like Croatia, that have a list of international approved licences and certificates.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:31   #386
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

I still don't see a clear answer to this question. MA does not require ANY recreational boating license or certificate for adults over 18 years old. Neither does the United States so I do not have one (although in the late 90s I did take a sailing club ASA certifiable full Master 40 course but never got around to take the actual exams). If I take my USGC documented vessel to any of the countries which require some kind of license supposedly of all boaters do I lose the boat to their bureaucracy, go to jail, suffer fines or what? Did this ever happen to someone in exactly the same situation i.e. person from a state where such license is not required nor in possession of any kind of nautical license or certificate was stopped from sailing in country's waters or worse.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:51   #387
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
I still don't see a clear answer to this question. MA does not require ANY recreational boating license or certificate for adults over 18 years old. Neither does the United States so I do not have one (although in the late 90s I did take a sailing club ASA certifiable full Master 40 course but never got around to take the actual exams). If I take my USGC documented vessel to any of the countries which require some kind of license supposedly of all boaters do I lose the boat to their bureaucracy, go to jail, suffer fines or what? Did this ever happen to someone in exactly the same situation i.e. person from a state where such license is not required nor in possession of any kind of nautical license or certificate was stopped from sailing in country's waters or worse.
You can go to the Noonsite where generally they are correct about the papers and licences or certifications you need to have to sail on each country. Normally pilot books also refer that.

No, normally you don't have your boat appended or finned unless you are sailing illegally on a country. On entering a country you should show the yellow ensign and go as possible to a Port of entry for all formalities. If you do not have an appropriated licence or certificate, a radio operator licence or certificate and in many cases a proper insurance to sail there they just would not let you in and send you away.

Now, if they refuse you entry and are found cruising their waters, then probably you are in dip trouble.

I am curious regarding the US. You say that you don't need a licence on Ma but if you sail to a US state where a licence or certificate is required you have not to have one to sail there legally?
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:14   #388
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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You can go to the Noonsite where generally they are correct about the papers and licences or certifications you need to have to sail on each country. Normally pilot books also refer that.

No, normally you don't have your boat appended or finned unless you are sailing illegally on a country. On entering a country you should show the yellow ensign and go as possible to a Port of entry for all formalities. If you do not have an appropriated licence or certificate, a radio operator licence or certificate and in many cases a proper insurance to sail there they just would not let you in and send you away.

Now, if they refuse you entry and are found cruising their waters, then probably you are in dip trouble.

I am curious regarding the US. You say that you don't need a licence on Ma but if you sail to a US state where a licence or certificate is required you have not to have one to sail there legally?
In US I do not need a license anywhere as long as my own state of registration and/or residence does not require one. Here we have concept of comity i.e. one state has to accept another state's requirements if someone is passing through. It's something else if I hang out longer than the usual 30 or some such days for the "passing through" and become more of a resident by my actions, i.e. rent an apartment, get a job, get a local tel. number, etc. It's similar with cars as some states have a temp period when a purchaser may drive around w/o regular plates but with only his purchase paperwork (or something to that effect) under the rear window. MA does not allow it's own residents to drive even for 1 minute without the plates but legally has to let those temporarily plateless out of state cars through.

Now I sometimes hear of local cops not knowing this rule and ticketing and even towing such cars but the drivers if they pursue this in court always win as this is the greater constitutional law which the state has to abide by but not every LEO is aware of this. I suspect that the European maritime LEOs are similarly misinfromed as the applicable maritime conventions clearly exempt boaters such as myself from local boat licensing rules (i.e. the conventions usually say that they must accept the license of the boater's country/state, which clearly means if the country/state does not require or issue one they must accept that fact). But of course I would not chance it after crossing the Pond just to be turned back and would get something which will satisfy even the least knowledgeable Euro maritime LEO before I show up there.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:06   #389
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

Instead of licencing, how about a list of identification of persons who are banned from operating a boat? Probably with some sort of standardized identification. (State ID card, drivers licence, passport number, etc.)

The basic idea would be as follows.

1. Some idiot decides to do something stupid. (Like paddle his paddle boat account a shipping channel, or run into a moored boat with his speed boat.)
2. Some law enforcement or another identifies his stupid action, and gives him a citation for it. (USCG, water police, fish and game dept., etc.)
3. Each type of citation would have a "points" number. Too many "points", and the individual is banned from operating a boat.
4. If the individual is caught operating a boat again, or an extremely gross violation, regardless of who owns the boat, the boat is impounded. (unless the boat is stolen, in that case the individual gets jail time for stealing it AND operating it.)

Thus if you don't want to be banned from operating a boat, you'll make sure that you don't do things that would result in citations and your resulting banning. In order to keep your boat, and avoid banning you'll make sure your informed, and operating your boat within the law.

For boat rental agencies, if you want to make sure you don't lose your boats, you'll certify your renters. You would call the state to check if they are on the "banned" list. And then require some sort of training and/or certification to rent your vessels out to make sure that they are not impounded.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:29   #390
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Re: Do you think recreational boats should be licensed?

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
I still don't see a clear answer to this question. MA does not require ANY recreational boating license or certificate for adults over 18 years old. Neither does the United States so I do not have one (although in the late 90s I did take a sailing club ASA certifiable full Master 40 course but never got around to take the actual exams). If I take my USGC documented vessel to any of the countries which require some kind of license supposedly of all boaters do I lose the boat to their bureaucracy, go to jail, suffer fines or what? Did this ever happen to someone in exactly the same situation i.e. person from a state where such license is not required nor in possession of any kind of nautical license or certificate was stopped from sailing in country's waters or worse.
If you are in New Jersey waters.....they will ask you to stop boating, vacate the waters and possibly escort you out.

Realistically....I see them giving you a written warning and them saying get out and don't come back without proof of boaters ed.
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