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17-09-2018, 10:39
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#76
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,568
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
"Originally Posted by DumnMad
Thats my understanding of the science also. Scientists told me anything boaters add to the high quantity of nutrients in the sea are negligible.
Its a no-brainer - sea-water is loaded with nutrients/plankton etc - just smell the clean seawater thats been allowed to die in your plumbing system."
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This is often repeated but wholly incorrect information.
The smell comes from the reduction of sulfate in seawater by bacteria in anaerobic conditions. Death of organisms are NOT a requirement to generate the smell, only the presence of facultative bacteria. A substantial reduction in oxygen is.
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17-09-2018, 10:41
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#77
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,568
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Singularity
I assume that the study has been reviewed meticulously.
So what is the scientific/ecological and/or human health concern about the BOD5, TSS, Fecal Coliform results and associated statistical analysis?
Is there a belief that the referenced study results are not valid for policy creation and enforcement?
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Since all US sewage (and EU) treatment standards are based on this, yes, it has been exhaustively reviewed by all sides. Google your heart out.
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17-09-2018, 10:44
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#78
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,568
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Let's be clear. The only difference in what you can and cannot do in an NDZ vs. a similar area that is not an NDZ is this: In an NDZ you cannot use an onboard waste treatment system. Outside an NDZ, you can.
In neither case is it permitted to discharge untreated waste.
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Exactly. This is widely misunderstood. If people are dumping raw waste, an NDZ won't change that, since it is already illegal.
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17-09-2018, 10:48
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#79
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,492
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
The funny thing is, during all the years I've been berthed in, and have sailed in, San Francisco bay, the following thought has never occurred to me :
"I love the clean waters and thriving ecosystem, but you know what really sucks? Not being able to dump my sewage into it"
__________________
Bristol 31.1, SF Bay.
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17-09-2018, 11:06
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#80
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
Exactly. This is widely misunderstood. If people are dumping raw waste, an NDZ won't change that, since it is already illegal.
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Just to (hopefully) be even clearer, it's already illegal to discharge raw untreated waste anywhere inland from the 3-mile offshore limit, correct?
So the primary advantage of an onboard treatment system is the ability to discharge treated waste within that 3-mile limit, except for NDZs? Also correct?
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17-09-2018, 11:07
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#81
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill
Actually in the Bahamas it is illegal to dump overboard, the problem is there are no pump outs, so what is one to do. I personally take my boat out of the anchorages a couple of miles before dumping, but many (most?) don't. Before the boat sunk in a hurricane there was a pump out boat in Georgetown that most people used, until they decided to double their price the year before it sunk. At $40 a pump out a day offshore "fishing" became quite attractive.
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I wasn't aware of this Cap'n Bill. Thanks for the correction.
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17-09-2018, 11:33
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#82
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S/V rubber ducky
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: heading "south"
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 20,363
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
And here I thought by now CF posters would have this issue all pooped out.
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
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17-09-2018, 11:52
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#83
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 4,795
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
So the primary advantage of an onboard treatment system is the ability to discharge treated waste within that 3-mile limit, except for NDZs? Also correct?
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Well, yes, but there's more to it than that.
There are areas that are not within a day's cruising distance of the 3-mile limit, that either lack pumpout facilities entirely (such as long stretches of the lower Mississippi, and remote parts of Lake Superior) or where the only pumpout facilities are impractical to use, due to limited hours, or being located in a shallow area, or behind a bridge with a limited operating schedule, etc.
There are also places around the world where it is legal or customary to discharge untreated sewage, but where a responsible cruiser might want an alternative.
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17-09-2018, 12:04
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#84
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,126
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
Since all US sewage (and EU) treatment standards are based on this, yes, it has been exhaustively reviewed by all sides. Google your heart out.
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You presented the same information multiple times on this subject. Indeed I did google it and found your previous post(s?) referencing the same study in the same out-of-context manner. I am trying to understand what your longitudinal concerns are about BOD5, etc. (i.e., the data you presented).
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17-09-2018, 12:16
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#85
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Oregon to Alaska
Boat: Wheeler Shipyard 83' ex USCG
Posts: 3,499
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Regardless of the science, NDZs are driven by emotion not science or even facts. They don't take into account marine life, tides, river flows and so on. I didn't have a reasonable place for a holding tank and was considering a MSD type 2 when the entire Puget Sound was proposed as a NDZ. And it's only going to get worse. Eventually the world will be a NDZ. That leaves compost and electric toilets. I went with electric, but I have a power boat with a good inverter and generators. Probably on a sailboat I'd use compost. Either way that ends the problem of the Coast Guard finding valves not closed or marina rules.
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17-09-2018, 12:54
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#86
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,547
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Let's be clear. The only difference in what you can and cannot do in an NDZ vs. a similar area that is not an NDZ is this: In an NDZ you cannot use an onboard waste treatment system. Outside an NDZ, you can.
In neither case is it permitted to discharge untreated waste.
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(Sure you can "use" it in a NDZ. You just can't discharge in a NDZ )
My bad. The last time this subject went around, it was about any discharge.
So maybe the most accurate justification is bureaucratic - it's simply too much hassle for enforcement to quickly determine whether a boat is "properly" treating waste or not? Or that an installed system is being used correctly? If you want a carve-out for properly-treated waste, maybe there should be an inspection/certification regime, and your boat would get a "certified treatment" sticker? I'm guessing not.
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17-09-2018, 13:08
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#87
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 4,795
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect
(Sure you can "use" it in a NDZ. You just can't discharge in a NDZ )
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Except for hybrid systems that also incorporate a tank for pumpout, which are fairly new to the market, the type I/II MSDs generally discharge treated waste whenever untreated waste is added.
Quote:
So maybe the most accurate justification is bureaucratic - it's simply too much hassle for enforcement to quickly determine whether a boat is "properly" treating waste or not? Or that an installed system is being used correctly? If you want a carve-out for properly-treated waste, maybe there should be an inspection/certification regime, and your boat would get a "certified treatment" sticker? I'm guessing not.
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We have most of that. The MSDs have to be certified, there are rules, etc etc etc. I don't think the NDZs are created for the convenience of law enforcement.
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17-09-2018, 13:13
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#88
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: cruising / rv
Boat: 1969 Columbia28, 1984/2016 Horstman TriStar36
Posts: 705
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
My strategy is to keep my immunity up through constant exposure to new pathogens. I swim and canoe and scuba dive in all kinds of freshwater mud puddles of doubtful purity. So do my kids.
I don't care about the fecal coliform. It's the atrazine that I worry about.
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Imagine whats coming down the tube in the Carolinas. Hog and chicken schitt logoon ovrrflow and coal ash , dead animals add that to your atrazine mansanto cocktail....
If you were reall worried about atrazine you would be filtering your drinking water thru your watermaker.
Its a fact that glyphosate is alreafy present in your body, the question is how much?
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17-09-2018, 14:56
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#89
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,547
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Except for hybrid systems that also incorporate a tank for pumpout, which are fairly new to the market, the type I/II MSDs generally discharge treated waste whenever untreated waste is added.
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That's an operating choice; one doesn't have to discharge overboard from a type I or II after every flush.
Quote:
We have most of that [bureaucracy]. The MSDs have to be certified, there are rules, etc etc etc. I don't think the NDZs are created for the convenience of law enforcement.
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The fixtures have a sticker, but no, we don't (yet) have to have a post-install inspection. Anyway, the practicalities of enforcement is also a definite factor; if someone claims they are properly discharging treated waste, what do the LEOs do - take a sample?
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17-09-2018, 16:03
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Nelson NZ; boat in Coffs Harbour
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,559
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Re: Do the potty police have science on their side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwizz
One question....
Would you want to swim in it?
Would you want your children to swim in it?
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From Wikipedia;
In the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimated roughly 1.7 million hospital-associated infections, from all types of microorganisms, including bacteria and fungi combined, cause or contribute to 99,000 deaths each year.[2] In Europe, where hospital surveys have been conducted, the category of gram-negative infections are estimated to account for two-thirds of the 25,000 deaths each year.
I take it your family are not allowed to visit hospitals
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