Do the potty police have science on their side?

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by thruska

Beaches closed due to e- oli are in my estimations are 100% from bird feces. Cant put a catch bag on that . But im sure some genetics engineres will build in the ndz into the geese’s gps ...”

There was a time when this was largely true, but modern test technology is much more specific and can tell the difference between human and other sources of E. coli.

[senormechanico]

The ecozealots got the pols to declare all of Puget Sound a NDZ.
It's ironic that the Northwestern edge of the NDZ is very near Canada's Victoria's totally untreated sewer outflow pipe.
Canada's been questioned about that for decades, and says they're going to get around to doing something about it...someday.
Meanwhile, boaters with thousand dollar plus Coast Guard approved MSD's are now criminals.
I've talked to other owners who have them and they are all in agreement. Band of Brothers !!

[sailorboy1]

The one thing that the discharge rules have that has NO basis in science is the 3 Mile thing.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

The one thing that the discharge rules have that has NO basis in science is the 3 Mile thing.

There sure is, 3 miles is about the distance to the horizon for the average height human. Out of sight, out of mind.

[Delfin]

FWIW, Dixie Lee Ray was gov. of Washington State and the head of the atomic energy commission. Her opinion was that the data showed that Puget sound was nitrogen starved and the best thing for it would be for boaters to flush their johnnies underway, dispersing NPK randomly throughout the Sound. Pollution, in her opinion, came from point sources of pollution like septic tanks or municipal runoff. Puget sound is now an NDZ and sewage treatment plants discharge millions of gallons of raw sewage into one tiny area of the Sound when there is a mechanical problem.

[thruska]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

There was a time when this was largely true, but modern test technology is much more specific and can tell the difference between human and other sources of E. coli.

I can grant you that Bill. I believe if you track migration seasons of birds you find the beach closings coincides.
I would venture beach closing are not due to small boat dumping. Maybe the typical freighter dump and municipal waste plant screwups.

Here’s one for the poo police...
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...oons/700517145

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by thruska

I can grant you that Bill. I believe if you track migration seasons of birds you find the beach closings coincides.
I would venture beach closing are not due to small boat dumping. Maybe the typical freighter dump and municipal waste plant screwups.

Here’s one for the poo police...
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...oons/700517145

I absolutely agree that beach closings have nothing to do with waste discharge from boats. They are most often caused by failed or overflowing sewage treatment plants or excessive septic tank discharges caused by high ground water.

[thruska]

Actually Bill , in retrospect, I realize my mindset is in reference to the beaches with which I’m familiar. That being along the coast of northeastern Wisconsin, although the same mindset is likely relative to many locations elsewhere.

[Tillerjockey]

They do not. The volume of waste discharged by a recreational boat is negligible and will have no effect on the marine enviornment.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Singularity

They are fairly expensive and a substantial percentage of boaters will not purchase and/or appropriately maintain and use them.

My head, based on a bucket and a sealable plastic waste disposal bag, cost me $40. The CG considers it a "porta pottie" which is legal everywhere. Dispose of the bag in the harbor dumpster.

Maintenance? Hose it out every now and then at the dock with some dish soap.

At sea: skip the plastic disposal bag, and use "direct deposit." Rinse with seawater after emptying.

The ladies don't like it at first, until I point out that it is far less disgusting than the porta potties at a rock concert, and that they can put anything they like in it without plugging it up.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by thruska

Beaches closed due to e- oli are in my estimations are 100% from bird feces. Cant put a catch bag on that . But im sure some genetics engineres will build in the ndz into the geese’s gps ...”

There is a fresh water lake in my area where one of the beaches is closed every so often in the summer. The beach in question is further isolated from the major part of the lake by a dam and the only boats allowed in this part of the lake are paddle boats.

They do say that bird poo is the cause of the closings.

The lake is well inland and the closings seem to happen when large numbers of Seagulls use the lake for some reason.

Later,
Dan

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Delfin

FWIW, Dixie Lee Ray was gov. of Washington State and the head of the atomic energy commission. Her opinion was that the data showed that Puget sound was nitrogen starved and the best thing for it would be for boaters to flush their johnnies underway, dispersing NPK randomly throughout the Sound. Pollution, in her opinion, came from point sources of pollution like septic tanks or municipal runoff. Puget sound is now an NDZ and sewage treatment plants discharge millions of gallons of raw sewage into one tiny area of the Sound when there is a mechanical problem.

Thats my understanding of the science also. Scientists told me anything boaters add to the high quantity of nutrients in the sea are negligible.
Its a no-brainer - sea-water is loaded with nutrients/plankton etc - just smell the clean seawater thats been allowed to die in your plumbing system.

[Exile]

Does salt vs. fresh water break down human poo faster, or is it mostly about dilution?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Jammer

The devices that are actually on the market today (Raritan) typically exceed the Coast Guard/EPA requirements by a factor of 100, according to the manufacturer.

Simply not true. Manufacturers have a real tendency to exaggerate beyond all reality. You can Google the EPA standard and EPA studies.
EPA Summary Data (results in mg/L)

Annalyte After Treatment Result EPA Sewage Treatment Standard
BOD5 780 45
TSS 1,000 45
Fecal Coliform < 82 200 (swimming areas)

The data was quite variable, with standard deviations over 100%.

--

Basically Type 1s bleach your poo. You decide if that is really treatment. I think the answer is "sort of" and "probably good enough" most of the time.

----

The general argument seems to be "I'm special so I can poo anywhere I want." Or at least that is what this thread would sound like to any non-sailor. How do we argue that our poo is somehow better? Sure, fish poop in the ocean. Bears shi_t in the woods. I don't understand the argument. We're not fish and we're not bears. We are people and there are a LOT of us. Yes, 3 miles is a random number, but would discussion be any different if it were 2 miles or 1 mile? I don't think so.


If you want to argue for improved POTW treatment, reduction in overflows, and elimination of combined sewers, make the argument. Separate subject. This rings of "don't ticket me for speeding because the other guy was much worse." You worry about you.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Exile

Does salt vs. fresh water break down human poo faster, or is it mostly about dilution?

The major difference (other than volume) is that saltwater deactivates or kills most pathenogens very quickly, with exception of cholera-related stains. These live and can be a real problem with shellfish (vibro). Brackish water (Chesapeake Bay and other bays) fall somewhere in between, more vulnerable, but not as bad as freshwater.



Freshwater remains infectious much longer.