Did I have to give way? Plus short-long blast.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Dockhead’s assessment is spot on, it’s time for some remedial reading for you.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf

I deal with ships every time I sail.

It's nothing new, and I'm telling you how it's done here.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by cal40john

Please read post #17.

I must be missing something, but I don't see anything in Post #17 which is relevant to the question of whether or not you should trying to make contact by VHF when you are in extremis one mile out from a collision with a large fast moving vessel.


The MCA take a harsh view of using VHF at all in collisions avoidance; see: https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4...mgn/mgn167.pdf


I don't agree with them completely, and certainly the real life PRACTICE of mariners calls for using VHF whenever something needs to be agreed or intentions need to be clarified, but the list of dangers in that MGN is very enlightening.


But at one mile out -- 3 minutes or less from impact -- there is just not time to distract yourself or the bridge of the other vessel from the urgent task of formulating and executing a maneuver, by calling them on the radio. At 3 or 5 miles out that might be a different story.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by blu3534

So please start taking your social forum responsibilities seriously! Might want to spend some money for courses to improve your manners. Don't you find it strange that often when I read threads here, it is exactly/only you which sticks out in a very negative way?

If you need a motivation: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/0...apology_break/. It can be done

If you don’t like my posts, please place me on ignore.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I wouldn't cross that close ahead of a ship anywhere if I were you. What if the wind dies suddenly?


Waiting a couple hundred yards outside of a CHANNEL is just fine, as is sailing along it. Even a couple of TENS of yards might be ok if you are clearly outside the channel and in water too shallow for him to get into. Be careful if his wash, however!


But this incident took place in open water, outside of the port, and apparently with no channels or fairways anywhere. It is one entirely different thing, when the ship is navigating in a channel, and you know to inches where he will be, and when the ship is in open water, and you don't.

I'm giving examples of how it's done here.

I also stated I crossed ships bows in a breeze while judging there speed to be in my favor. Otherwise you will darn sure here about it from the pilot. I have also heard Pilot's call the Norfolk/Virginia Beach Police Boat during big races to divert crazy racers crossing ship's paths too close (I know the deal because I raced for many years)

Many times I track their bearing with my handheld as we approach so I already know the score. I do this even when we won't be crossing in mid bay

We have two shipping channels going out so when sailing North or South my normal cruise directions you have to deal with ships at least twice sometimes more if you sail far enough as the North Channel turns

I also stated it may be different offshore

This is why we sometimes get into these discussions here on CF because situations can be so different

I have changed course in the middle of the Bay to allow fishing vessels of say only 120-150' to pass without changing course just because I knew those guys were headed home and I was pleasure cruising

Mid bay is sort of like offshore as the bay is 30 miles wide in places

I'm a bit surprised though in the situation here that the radio was used

I was hailed once at 10pm by a pilot on a container ship because I didn't see the darn thing.

I was approaching the shipping channel headed into the city from total darkness and due to light pollution I didn't see the little red light on a ship headed out to sea

There were tons of lights. Street lights, range marker lights, car head lights, buoy and channel marker lights, house window lights, porch lights, store lights, and little red and green boat and ship lights

After I got safely across the shipping channel I looked back to see another tiny green light and a huge ghost of a ship attached to it

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Five blasts means “I’m confused by your actions or lack of action”... get out of the way. Or more in line with your situation, “continuing to do what you’re doing is an extremely bad idea, because I can’t stop what I’m doing.”

You were in the wrong, doen’t matter that you were sailing. A cruise ship can take miles to stop or change course, and you need to understand this, a mile is way too close, very dumb move on your part.

You shouldn’d be out there endangering others and yourself without first reading the rules, then understanding them fully. The horn signals are basic, you never had any “rights,” there’s no such thing... you had an obligation to get out of the way to keep everyone safe.

Here’s a free copy of the rules, read them and learn: https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf

cough.BS.cough

I race on the Hudson River, it's around 3/4 of a mile wide where we race, and there is considerable commercial traffic.

Obviously we get much closer than 1 mile from the biggies.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

At one mile?

No, when the cruise ship first noticed a potential collision.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

No, when the cruise ship first noticed a potential collision.

So you're saying the cruise ship should have called the OP, before they got into close quarters?


The OP was asking about what HE should have done, not what the cruise ship should have done.


If we drift the thread and talk about the cruise ship, I guess he made several mistakes. The master of such a vessel would not want a WAFI to be in a position to commit suicide under his bows -- could have a very bad effect on his career, so ought to have taken earlier action.


Trying to call the recreational vessel on VHF is certainly one thing he might have done -- but in my experience, few recreational sailors keep much of a listening watch on VHF, and it's generally a waste of time.


But it's really irrelevant to the OP, because whatever the reason the cruise ship ended up a mile off, this doesn't change the answer to the OP's question.

[CyprusNeil]

Just to lighten the mood a little, who has right of way here as neither of these vessels are prepared to give way to each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkx0MxK-Yl4

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So you're saying the cruise ship should have called the OP, before they got into close quarters?


The OP was asking about what HE should have done, not what the cruise ship should have done.


If we drift the thread and talk about the cruise ship, I guess he made several mistakes. The master of such a vessel would not want a WAFI to be in a position to commit suicide under his bows -- could have a very bad effect on his career, so ought to have taken earlier action.


Trying to call the recreational vessel on VHF is certainly one thing he might have done -- but in my experience, few recreational sailors keep much of a listening watch on VHF, and it's generally a waste of time.


But it's really irrelevant to the OP, because whatever the reason the cruise ship ended up a mile off, this doesn't change the answer to the OP's question.

Bloody hell, I didn't state anything, I asked some questions. Quick, look over there.......

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Pete17C

cough.BS.cough

I race on the Hudson River, it's around 3/4 of a mile wide where we race, and there is considerable commercial traffic.

Obviously we get much closer than 1 mile from the biggies.

Please re-read post #1, it was a crossing collision situation. The OP waited until the cruise ship was bearing down to within one mile in a crossing situation, placing him on front of the cruise ship had he not altered his course.

If that’s what you do on a regular basis.... zig zag on front of cruise ships... then that just adds more evidence to the argument that we are in need of boating licensure in the US.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

Bloody hell, I didn't state anything, I asked some questions. Quick, look over there.......

Well, then I simply don't know what we're talking about. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[psk125]

Getting back to the original premise... a cruise ship crossing you does not want to make a 10º course change and then see you tack, or slow down because of a lull, requiring them to then make a second or third course change. Talking with them on the radio (Channel 6 or 13 ?) would have eliminated any confusion and avoided all the noisy horns.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by psk125

Getting back to the original premise... a cruise ship crossing you does not want to make a 10º course change and then see you tack, or slow down because of a lull, requiring them to then make a second or third course change. Talking with them on the radio (Channel 6 or 13 ?) would have eliminated any confusion and avoided all the noisy horns.

Yes -- mutual knowledge of everyone's intentions can solve a lot of problems. But the radio conversation would have needed to take place much sooner than 1 mile, which is too late for a course change, oops he tacked, another course change, etc. And it's too late for a series of unanswered radio calls, which might on top of that take someone away from the helm and distract from an urgent maneuver. 1 mile is 3 minutes (!) at 20 knots.


Normal procedure on board big ships is not usually to try to call small recreational boats, although I agree that calling could help -- IF you could raise someone on the small recreational boat. Normal procedure when it's possible is to change course far enough away that last minute tacking on the part of the WAFI, or wind lulls, can't cause a collision. With a speed difference of 3:1 it might take only a small course change at 5 or 8 miles, to open up a CPA bigger than what the small boat can screw up with an unexpected maneuver.


But remember they might just not see you, or might be busy battling some other problem, or dealing with other traffic. There are a lot of reasons why they might not maneuver and solve the problem. That's why you have to be ready to deal with it yourself, and do it soon enough that it doesn't become a drama.



If you have drama in crossing situations with other vessels, you're doing it wrong.

[odonnellryan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

LOL. If one mile is way too close, a lot of you would have no chance of sailing in Sydney harbour!

Or NYC! Very common to come within a few hundred yards of a cruise ship or other massive boat (more commonly barges pushed by tugs but those aren't as scary).

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Please re-read post #1, it was a crossing collision situation. The OP waited until the cruise ship was bearing down to within one mile in a crossing situation, placing him on front of the cruise ship had he not altered his course.

If that’s what you do on a regular basis.... zig zag on front of cruise ships... then that just adds more evidence to the argument that we are in need of boating licensure in the US.

Yes, but not cruise ships, tankers and barges mostly, and the occasional 'dayliner' tour boats. We usually only zig OR zag in front of them though

You couldn't sail on the Hudson if you wanted to keep even 1/4 mile distance from the large commercial traffic.

But if you feel you can't handle your boat in those conditions, don't.

We'll be out racing this weekend.