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Old 22-12-2015, 22:11   #61
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

NO NO NO, your confusing things. I was referring to 'law enforcement' agencies.. e.g police, coast guard, etc. I was not referring to sureties and stock market, tax departments etc. That's an entirely different beast.

I don't 'think' that the US coast guard can dish out a $100 000 fine.. can they commonly called a citation, or a ticket over here.
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Old 22-12-2015, 23:08   #62
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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name me one place other than Sweden or Switzerland

gees, pedenatic posters
It's spelled "pedantic."
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Old 22-12-2015, 23:23   #63
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

Quit being so pedenatic !
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Old 23-12-2015, 05:15   #64
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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I don't 'think' that the US coast guard can dish out a $100 000 fine..
The law is quite clear that they can . . . . For any number of offenses. Just as three other random examples . . . . uscg can penalize "Discharge of oil" with a civil fine of $125,000. There is a possible $130,000 civil fine/day for "Engaging in Fishing After Falsifying Eligibility". And a $110,000 for "Hazardous Materials: Related to Vessels—Penalty from Fatalities, Serious Injuries/Illness or substantial Damage to Property". These possible civil penilities/fines are explicitly written into the various laws that the USCG enforces. There really is no question that the uscg can follow the law(s) and "dish out" these sorts of fines. Honestly I am not sure what you are arguing about or disagreeing with.

now if you want something that will spin your head . . . Look up "Civil forfeiture". . . . They can and do seize significant assets without even charging the person with any wrong doing.

And . . . BTW. . . . The SEC is a law enforcement agency . . . . That's what it does , enforces the security laws . . .the SEC's own website says " First and foremost, the SEC is a law enforcement agency" . . . . Yes they are "white collar" laws, but it is not really "a substantially different beast". It is a federal law enforcement agency which can pursue either criminal or civil penilities, including quite large fines.
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Old 23-12-2015, 05:22   #65
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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hmmmm . . . .but one of the possible penalties for this offense (sailing to cuba without USCG permit) is in fact a 10 year jail term.
'Up to'!, 'up to a ten year jail term'! There's a big difference.
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Old 23-12-2015, 05:28   #66
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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The law is quite clear that they can . . . . For any number of offenses. Just as another example . . . . uscg can penalize "Discharge of oil" with a civil fine of $125,000. These possible penilities/fines are explicitly written into the various laws that the USCG enforces. There really is no question that the uscg can follow the law(s) and "dish out" these sorts of fines. Honestly I am not sure what you are arguing about or disagreeing with.

now if you want something that will spin your head . . . Look up "Civil forfeiture". . . . They can and do seize assets without even charging the person with any wrong doing.

And . . . BTW. . . . The SEC is a law enforcement agency . . . . That's what it does , enforces the security laws . . . . Yes they are "white collar" laws, but it is not really "a substantially different beast". It is a federal law enforcement agency which can pursue either criminal or civil penilities, including quite large fines.
This is my original question on this. "I was suggesting nothing like that. Name me any country in the world where a cop, a custom's officer, coast guard, whatever can dish out a $100 000 fine? I suspect you will find none" now I wasn't sure and clearly two countries have been named.

Your not sure what I'm arguing about or disagreeing with? that's because I wasn't, I was asking a question.

Now, in regards the USCG, can you cite a reference to support your claim that the USCG can give out these huge fines as infringements? I'm not talking about civil penalties either.

Please with sugar and cherry on top
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Old 23-12-2015, 06:02   #67
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Now, in regards the USCG, can you cite a reference to support your claim that the USCG can give out these huge fines as infringements?
As I have said . . . you only have to go look at the text of the laws . . . . In this thread I have already quoted the cuba CFR, with includes "(4) A civil penalty of not more than
$25,000 for each day of violation. "

You can look up the fishing law with includes "civil penalty of not more than $100,000 for each day the vessel engages in fishing .... After Falsifying Eligibility" "

This is a little out of date (2010) but is a listing of a whole range of the authorized (by law) fines the USCG can 'dish out"
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Old 23-12-2015, 06:22   #68
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
This is my original question on this. "I was suggesting nothing like that. Name me any country in the world where a cop, a custom's officer, coast guard, whatever can dish out a $100 000 fine? I suspect you will find none" now I wasn't sure and clearly two countries have been named.

Your not sure what I'm arguing about or disagreeing with? that's because I wasn't, I was asking a question.

Now, in regards the USCG, can you cite a reference to support your claim that the USCG can give out these huge fines as infringements? I'm not talking about civil penalties either.

Please with sugar and cherry on top
I'm confused by your question.

USCG, as any law enforcement agency, witnesses what they believe to be an infraction of a law and, depending on the seriousness, issues a 'summons' to appear in court. The person receiving the summons has the option to admit guilt and pay a fine in lieu of appearing in court. The USCG didn't impose the fine, the law and it's interpretation by the prosecuting attorney (in this case, the USDA) set the guidelines (allowable by law) for the amount of money a person admitting guilt should pay. It's always an option to appear in court and plead your case, but, the amount of the fine/punishment typically goes up if a court gets involved and finds you did in fact break the law as the USCG witnessed. Obviously, if there are extenuating circumstances, the court also has the ability to lower/lessen the punishment.
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Old 23-12-2015, 06:29   #69
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
This is my original question on this. "I was suggesting nothing like that. Name me any country in the world where a cop, a custom's officer, coast guard, whatever can dish out a $100 000 fine? I suspect you will find none" now I wasn't sure and clearly two countries have been named.
In the US many federal agencies are empowered by Congress to issue orders, judgments, fines and citations. Examples are: Federal Communications Commission, Environmental Protection Agency, Occupational Safety and Health Administration, Federal Aviation Adminstration, National Highway Safety Adminstration and the list goes on. These agencies conduct proceedings that must meet constitutional restrictions and rights of all citizens. There is a way to appeal any judgement or order by a federal agency to the US court of appeals and ultimately the Supreme Court.

Look at Title 14 USC 89 for authority for USCG to interdict vessels, issue fines and seize property. All without any court outside the administrative law judge within the Department of Homeland Security.
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Old 23-12-2015, 13:46   #70
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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I'm confused by your question.

USCG, as any law enforcement agency, witnesses what they believe to be an infraction of a law and, depending on the seriousness, issues a 'summons' to appear in court. The person receiving the summons has the option to admit guilt and pay a fine in lieu of appearing in court. The USCG didn't impose the fine, the law and it's interpretation by the prosecuting attorney (in this case, the USDA) set the guidelines (allowable by law) for the amount of money a person admitting guilt should pay. It's always an option to appear in court and plead your case, but, the amount of the fine/punishment typically goes up if a court gets involved and finds you did in fact break the law as the USCG witnessed. Obviously, if there are extenuating circumstances, the court also has the ability to lower/lessen the punishment.
Yes I think what is happening is there is a lot going missing in interpretting my question into a US context from my only known Australian context. The above in bold is what I 'thought' would occur in the the U.S. They issue a 'summons' not the actual 'ticket'. The offender elects to dispute it in court or ?

estarzinger has provided a number of interesting pages which I'm starting to think it's in the context that you guys arn't understanding my question and I don't understand the U.S processes. Let me explain what happens here in Australia and that might help explain 'my confusion' in trying to understand your laws and what you guys are saying.

Over here (Australia) law enforcement agencies have two options (arrest in relatively few situations), the first being he/she can give in certain documented offenses a 'ticket'. You guys might call them a citation, I'm not sure. Over here, the ticket that law enforcement can give is a stated amount. e.g the officer can't decide what the penalty is as it's dictated to him by another piece of legilsation. This avoids any chance of inpropriety on behalf of the officer. With this 'ticket' the offender can either pay the amount on the ticket or elect to dispute the ticket and given a set time they will receive a summons to appear in court. Pretty much the same thing happens as Dotdun has indicated.

The other option an officer has is similar to what Dotdun has outlined, he/she can give a summons for the person to appear in court. Our 'summons' doesn't state the 'cost' or fine. It's simply a summons to appear in court to answer the charges. Upon a hearing, or the defendant pleading guilty at the right time, the court is then open to impose a fine. The Maximum is outlined in the legislation. The Magistrate can impose anything 'up to' the maximum oulinded in the legislation.

This seems to be something different to what you guys have. Your fines say 'up to', but I'm starting to think 'up to' means something different than it does here. It is rarely that someone here in Australia will receive the absolute max fine as stated in the legislation.
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Old 23-12-2015, 14:21   #71
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Yes I think what is happening is there is a lot going missing in interpretting my question into a US context from my only known Australian context. The above in bold is what I 'thought' would occur in the the U.S. They issue a 'summons' not the actual 'ticket'. The offender elects to dispute it in court or ?

estarzinger has provided a number of interesting pages which I'm starting to think it's in the context that you guys arn't understanding my question and I don't understand the U.S processes. Let me explain what happens here in Australia and that might help explain 'my confusion' in trying to understand your laws and what you guys are saying.

Over here (Australia) law enforcement agencies have two options (arrest in relatively few situations), the first being he/she can give in certain documented offenses a 'ticket'. You guys might call them a citation, I'm not sure. Over here, the ticket that law enforcement can give is a stated amount. e.g the officer can't decide what the penalty is as it's dictated to him by another piece of legilsation. This avoids any chance of inpropriety on behalf of the officer. With this 'ticket' the offender can either pay the amount on the ticket or elect to dispute the ticket and given a set time they will receive a summons to appear in court. Pretty much the same thing happens as Dotdun has indicated.

The other option an officer has is similar to what Dotdun has outlined, he/she can give a summons for the person to appear in court. Our 'summons' doesn't state the 'cost' or fine. It's simply a summons to appear in court to answer the charges. Upon a hearing, or the defendant pleading guilty at the right time, the court is then open to impose a fine. The Maximum is outlined in the legislation. The Magistrate can impose anything 'up to' the maximum oulinded in the legislation.

This seems to be something different to what you guys have. Your fines say 'up to', but I'm starting to think 'up to' means something different than it does here. It is rarely that someone here in Australia will receive the absolute max fine as stated in the legislation.
A ticket is basically a summons that includes a mechanism where one can plead guilty and pay a fine in lieu of actually appearing in court. There are also summons that require you to appear in court without the option of pleading guilty prior to the court date. The terms are used interchangeably in the US.
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Old 23-12-2015, 14:24   #72
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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A ticket is basically a summons that includes a mechanism where one can plead guilty and pay a fine in lieu of actually appearing in court. There are also summons that require you to appear in court without the option of pleading guilty prior to the court date. The terms are used interchangeably in the US.
So, if the Coast Guard gives you a 'ticket', does that ticket have the maximum fine allowable on it or less? And if it's less than the Max, as in the lists estarzinger provided, then how is the lessor amount determined?
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Old 23-12-2015, 14:41   #73
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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So, if the Coast Guard gives you a 'ticket', does that ticket have the maximum fine allowable on it or less? And if it's less than the Max, as in the lists estarzinger provided, then how is the lessor amount determined?
One can only guess. The prosecuting attorney for the jurisdiction has to be satisfied before they would allow a case to be plead out, hence it would make sense they are a decision maker as to the amount.
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Old 23-12-2015, 20:14   #74
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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So, if the Coast Guard gives you a 'ticket', does that ticket have the maximum fine allowable on it or less? And if it's less than the Max, as in the lists estarzinger provided, then how is the lessor amount determined?
It is not necessarily the maximum amount allowed by law, in fact it is usually not. It will depend on various 'seriousness factors'. And it will often depend on whether the involved officer is having a good day or not.

Just as an example here is a USCG User Guide for the pollution violation fines. Chapter 3 section C is titled "Determining Level of Penalty" . . . . in this case, the manual says 'The enclosures of this Manual specify predetermined penalties for
oil discharges 1000 gallons or less and violations of designated laws and regulations. No deviation from the proposed penalty amounts listed in the enclosures is authorized.' However, there is significant practical real world leeway for the officer to decide which offenses and how many of them to charge for. Note: this manual is for the process for the generally less serious/smaller amount fines. The more serious and bigger amounts the more discretion there is.

I might note . . . .the USCG set the BP oil spill penalty at $4000/barrel (which I believe was neither the highest nor the lowest they were allowed by law). . . .and that added up to some double digit $B's. BP challenged it in court and the court upheld the penalty amount.
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Old 24-12-2015, 04:49   #75
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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It is not necessarily the maximum amount allowed by law, in fact it is usually not. It will depend on various 'seriousness factors'. And it will often depend on whether the involved officer is having a good day or not.

Just as an example here is a USCG User Guide for the pollution violation fines. Chapter 3 section C is titled "Determining Level of Penalty" . . . . in this case, the manual says 'The enclosures of this Manual specify predetermined penalties for
oil discharges 1000 gallons or less and violations of designated laws and regulations. No deviation from the proposed penalty amounts listed in the enclosures is authorized.' However, there is significant practical real world leeway for the officer to decide which offenses and how many of them to charge for. Note: this manual is for the process for the generally less serious/smaller amount fines. The more serious and bigger amounts the more discretion there is.

I might note . . . .the USCG set the BP oil spill penalty at $4000/barrel (which I believe was neither the highest nor the lowest they were allowed by law). . . .and that added up to some double digit $B's. BP challenged it in court and the court upheld the penalty amount.
The USCG guide was really helpful in answering my initial question. It would appear that the maximum 'ticket' or as they call it a 'notice of violation' an NOV is $10 000. Beyond this amount the USCG cannot issue a NOV. so I presume they would then proceed by summons.
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