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Old 18-12-2015, 22:08   #46
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
It appears to me that the penalties written into law for knowing failure to get the USCG permit are:

(1) Imprisonment for not more than 10 years;
(2) A monetary penalty of not more than $10,000;
(3) Seizure and forfeiture of the vessel; and
(4) A civil penalty of not more than $25,000 for each day of violation.

Note that #4 would equal $100k after 4 days in cuba.

The USCG is (primarily) a law enforcement agency, and I presume like other such agencies they cite a person, write a proposed 'ticket', and that person can either plead guilty and pay the proposed punishment or plead not-guilty and go to court. In this case, it seems like there was no permit filed, which would seem to make it a bit of an open and shut case, except for potential negotiation about the actual penalty.
There is no such thing as an ''open and shut case''. Ask O. J. Simpson.
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Old 19-12-2015, 00:43   #47
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

Did he find the real killers yet ?
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Old 19-12-2015, 10:03   #48
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Did he find the real killers yet ?
No, he has been restricted in his ability to search.
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Old 21-12-2015, 13:16   #49
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I would have thought that fines of that nature would be handed out by the courts though, not by the coast guard or any other authority?

Think of a LEO giving a speeding ticket with a hundred dollar (or what ever) fine. You can pay the hundred dollars, or you can hire a lawyer, go to court, and if you lose pay maybe a larger fine as well as court costs as well as the lawyer's fees.

Same things goes for stuff like anchoring on coral or damaging sea grass. You can pay the fine imposed by FWC or you can go to court and as a rule pay even more.
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Old 21-12-2015, 13:54   #50
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Think of a LEO giving a speeding ticket with a hundred dollar (or what ever) fine. You can pay the hundred dollars, or you can hire a lawyer, go to court, and if you lose pay maybe a larger fine as well as court costs as well as the lawyer's fees.

Same things goes for stuff like anchoring on coral or damaging sea grass. You can pay the fine imposed by FWC or you can go to court and as a rule pay even more.
I was suggesting nothing like that. Name me any country in the world where a cop, a custom's officer, coast guard, whatever can dish out a $100 000 fine? I suspect you will find none.
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:11   #51
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I was suggesting nothing like that. Name me any country in the world where a cop, a custom's officer, coast guard, whatever can dish out a $100 000 fine? I suspect you will find none.
Well.. welcome to Finland but be carefull with speed limits. There are several over 100 000€ fines here but the record is 800 000€ ticket for speeding in Switzerland.

BR Teddy
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:14   #52
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Well.. welcome to Finland but be carefull with speed limits. There are several over 100 000€ fines here but the record is 800 000€ ticket for speeding in Switzerland.

BR Teddy
Name me a place 'other than Finland' (my sister used to do that to me all the time, change the rules of an argument, used to drive me nuts)
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:41   #53
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Name me a place 'other than Finland' (my sister used to do that to me all the time, change the rules of an argument, used to drive me nuts)
Switzerland
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-10960230
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:55   #54
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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name me one place other than Sweden or Switzerland

gees, pedenatic posters
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Old 22-12-2015, 09:10   #55
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I was suggesting nothing like that. Name me any country in the world where a cop, a custom's officer, coast guard, whatever can dish out a $100 000 fine? I suspect you will find none.
The United States.

In particular, the enforcement arm of both the SEC and the FDA have handed out fines that ran into the millions of dollars in the past. And these are fines that are issued, in every legal sense, just like the ticket that a traffic cop might hand out. You can accept and pay, or you can challenge and go to court. Of course, when the fines get up into that range a much larger percentage of those "ticketed" choose to challenge.
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Old 22-12-2015, 14:25   #56
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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The United States.

In particular, the enforcement arm of both the SEC and the FDA have handed out fines that ran into the millions of dollars in the past. And these are fines that are issued, in every legal sense, just like the ticket that a traffic cop might hand out. You can accept and pay, or you can challenge and go to court. Of course, when the fines get up into that range a much larger percentage of those "ticketed" choose to challenge.
Can you cite this please? I had understood the US is one common place that definately doesn't allow enforcement arms that much authority? They leave it up to the courts to consider such a fine.

Of course the problem with such systems where local law enforcement can hand out very large fines is that it opens the system up to corruption and favours being done to reduce the fine. Where Law enforcement have that sort of ability, people will do anything to convince them to lesson it for them and of course there is no oversight then.
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Old 22-12-2015, 16:36   #57
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Can you cite this please? I had understood the US is one common place that definately doesn't allow enforcement arms that much authority? They leave it up to the courts to consider such a fine.

Of course the problem with such systems where local law enforcement can hand out very large fines is that it opens the system up to corruption and favours being done to reduce the fine. Where Law enforcement have that sort of ability, people will do anything to convince them to lesson it for them and of course there is no oversight then.
Not sure what you mean by a cite but a quick google search with the terms SEC, FDA, and I might add DEP and the word fine will bring up plenty of examples. There have been multiple posts outlining how the system works. The regulating agency assesses a fine based on what they view as the damage done by the transgression. The person/company being fined can pay the fine or negotiate with the agency or as a last resort go to court. As a rule agencies tend to be realistic in the amount of the fine since going to court and losing not only results in a black eye but also encourages others to go to court. This is the "oversight" in that a really big fine would get media coverage and if the agency over reached there would likely be political intervention.

I seem to remember a while back Michael Milken made something like a billion dollars in the market and was fined $US600,000,000 along with a soft jail term. Both the fine and jail term were the result of a plea bargain.

This is why a single cite is not easy to find. In the Milken case most of what happened was in closed negotiations behind closed doors. Notice multiple posts in this thread are about how the owner of WR and the USCG are not really discussing the matter and the WR owner has retained legal counsel. I would bet there is discussion between lawyers for both sides and what ever the result there may well be a NDA.
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Old 22-12-2015, 16:50   #58
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

Dated today . . . . $8.8m SEC fine agreed/settled/announced . . .. . .SEC.gov | Morgan Stanley Settles Charges in “Parking” Scheme
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Old 22-12-2015, 18:00   #59
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

You guys are confusing "crimes" with "infractions". If you are charged with a crime, you can be sentenced to jail or prison and may also be fined according to statute. If you are charged with an infraction then no jail or prison is possible but you may be fined.

That's why you get a public defender in criminal cases but not civil cases. Your liberty is at stake. Other penalties can attach to infractions like losing your driver's license or being ordered to attend traffic school, but you can't be incarcerated.
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Old 22-12-2015, 18:04   #60
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Re: Cuba .. . Fine

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Originally Posted by vjm View Post
You guys are confusing "crimes" with "infractions". If you are charged with a crime, you can be sentenced to jail or prison and may also be fined according to statute. If you are charged with an infraction then no jail or prison is possible but you may be fined.

That's why you get a public defender in criminal cases but not civil cases. Your liberty is at stake. Other penalties can attach to infractions like losing your driver's license or being ordered to attend traffic school, but you can't be incarcerated.
hmmmm . . . .but one of the possible penalties for this offense (sailing to cuba without USCG permit) is in fact a 10 year jail term.
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