Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

[goboatingnow]

Just to be a sticker. These are" union " flags. Not " union jacks" which only exist on HMS

Dave

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

. . . Point is if your vessel use is contained within the US, preferably the state in which the boat is registered, no problem... heading out to foreign waters, probably no problem. But trying to renter... OOPS! Capt Phil

Basic problem is Zudnic's dissertations is that they contain a lot of misinformation and assertions that are simply wrong in the current world of USA Immigration. I just completed 2.5 years of work bringing a foreign national into the USA legally so am intimately aware of the procedures and laws governing immigration and LPR (legal permanent residency).
- - Probably a lot of folks ire has to do with dealing with less than friendly officials or relying also on "stories" from folks who have not successfully completed the processes. He has jumbled together a whole universe of different situations which are, in fact, separate and cannot be mixed or cross connected.
- - Most of the stuff has no relationship to the OP's question about owning/operating a USA State Titled and registered vessel to cruise the world. And it is highly politically charged, which in the case of any dealing with US Immigration is quite understandable. The US Immigration system is shot through with political exceptions (e.g.: Cubans and other politically selected groups) while well off, responsible, productive foreign nationals are made to jump through hoops that are both illogical and demeaning. But that is the American Way - and from the sounds of it also the way of many other Nations of the world.
- - As to the when a VWP visa terminates, I covered that in paragraph 3 of my post #80. Plain and clearly stated VWP is not available for recreational vessels to use - never has been. Maybe an illogical regulation but it is a political decision made by US politicians and they have never been accused of being logical.
- - Legal Permanent Residents (LPR or Green Card holder) information presented by Zudnic is considerably in error and occasionally downright wrong. It is a complicated subject and not reducible to cross mixing with work permits, rights, etc. And it changes quite frequently with time, so what one LPR experienced years ago is not what a new LPR will experience today. That whole subject is way off topic from the OP's question. But one digression, if your please, a new wrinkle is that LPR's now get an actual green colored "green card" with an RFID embedded in it. And are required to have it physically on their person at all times in public. This allows any LEO to "wand" them and without asking anything access the main database and know everything there is to know about the LPR. US Citizens are also required to have RFID embedded ID's or drivers licenses with the next renewal of either.
- - Trying to get the discusson back on the OP's question, since the USCG does not and will not document boats smaller than their stated minimum, cruising with them outside US Territorial waters is not as simple as a larger USCG documented vessel. But most Customs/Immigration officials of most countries are intimately aware of the "strangeness" of some USA policies and do not make a big deal of the problem. If you try cruising the world in a larger undocumented vessel, the officials might want to know why you did not get USCG Documentation since it is available for your vessel and possibly deny admission of the vessel.
- - The other wrinkle is as a non-citizen/non-LPR of the USA, when you take your USA State titled/registered vessel out of USA Territorial waters. Again this occurs and no reports have been published as to being refused entry if the vessel is again below the size requirement for national documentation.
- - Immigration which deals with humans is separate and different from Customs which deals with the vessel and any goods/contents of the vessel. My vessel has been allowed entry into some countries while their immigration official has denied my wife's entry. That presents a problem as we live together on the boat. So we leave and go somewhere else.
- - Vessel re-entry into the USA is only subject to Customs regulations. However, humans on board the vessel must comply with USA Immigration regulations which as I stated a minute ago can be quite different and result in denial of the humans and acceptance of the vessel.
- - Many, many Canadians and others own vessels in Florida which are State Titled and registered. They base the vessels in Florida year round and use them occasionally to visit the Bahamas. I have never heard of any problems getting the vessels into the Bahamas or back into the USA.
- - However, the Canadians have long term multi-entry B1/B2 visas and have no problems re-entering the USA. This would be analogous to a foreign national entering the USA as a guest/crew of a USA citizen on a USA vessel.
- - Hyper-political discussions of "Flags", Queens, Native Americans, etc. have little to do with answering the OP's question. And again there are a lot of quotes without any attribution as to their sources which makes them hearsay as to whether they are valid or not.
- - There is no end of people including myself who are "pissed" about this or that governmental idiotic this or that. Unfortunately that has been the case for thousands of years of human history and is not very likely to change. Welcome to the real world. . .

[goboatingnow]

I like that post.

As to the OPs question can I ask this, is anyone aware of state titled vessels being denied entry due to that fact. I'm not aware of it anywhere in Europe for example.
Dave

[Capt Phil]

osirissail, the point I was trying to make was that in my personal experience, trying to take a vehicle across a US border crossing if the state of registration of the vehicle did not match up with the citizenship document (ie passport) I presented, it has caused me no end of difficulty. This was driving, however.
I would expect the same treatment by C&I if I tried entry by boat.
Provided the non-US citizen visitor had a long term multi-entry B1/B2 visa, this would go a long way to smoothing the Immigration road, I would think. I was not aware that there were so many multi-entry visas like that out there.
If I were in the situation of cruising a state registered vessel internationally as a foreign national, I would want to check out how re-entry into the US would be handled by asking C&I before I left.
My personal experience of trying to arrange a foreign nationals' vessel to enter and cruise US waters for extended periods was not precisely on topic but I felt there was enough commonality to be of value to other foreign nationals contemplating the same thing. Perhaps I'm overly cautious but when clients hire me to ensure we follow procedures so they can continue to visit the US through the years, I felt obligated to do my best to avoid problems... suggest others do the same. it is a complicated problem and a great topic for discussion. Surprised we haven't heard from others who have gone through the same dance. Capt Phil

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

. . . If I were in the situation of cruising a state registered vessel internationally as a foreign national, I would want to check out how re-entry into the US would be handled by asking C&I before I left.
My personal experience of trying to arrange a foreign nationals' vessel to enter and cruise US waters for extended periods was not precisely on topic but I felt there was enough commonality to be of value to other foreign nationals contemplating the same thing. . .

Websites like Noonsite.com and others including the individual nations various governmental websites and their tourist service websites are the places to find out as much as you can before arriving at a new foreign nation. Failure to do that usually results in a few unpleasant and possibly very expensive hassles.
- - Leaving a country is quite different from arriving/entering a country. In particular with the USA, you can ferret out the best information from government websites like: U.S. Customs and Border Protection - Travel
- - It does sometimes take time and effort to get to exact information you want. Governmental websites are mostly like the rest of governmental activities - not necessarily logical.
- - Border crossing by land or air are often radically different from doing such by private recreational vessels. But after nearly destroying the US economy by stopping or delaying international trade, especially with our boarder partners, the USA has dramatically changed - another politically expedient "exception" - the Canada and Mexico to US crossing procedures. For other parts of the world that are not so critical to trade like Canada and Mexico, the procedures are different and might be considered quite onerous and illogical. But that's politics.

[meyermm]

This would be my advice register the boat with the country who issued you your passport. Some countries may accept a state registration but they are more than likely to be small island states such is found in the South Pacific. An Australian buying a USCG registered boat normally is deregistered at time of sale. The Aust. citizen then applies for Aus. registration prior to leaving US. A registration number is quickly supplied even though final completion may not take effect for a considerable time. Not 100% sure but I seem to remember the max period is 12mnths from application. It is neither expensive nor very difficult but you are asked for ships ID at point of entry to each country. My point being is why make it more difficult than necessary and leave yourself open to unforseen problems such as collision, insurance etc apart from entry denial.

[Capt Phil]

I'm with you, meyermm... I think it would save a lot of hassle on re-entry. Capt Phil

[zudnic]

I brought up the British flag thing and Indians because a group of Canadians that have some aboriginal rights in Canada. They think that the USA should hand them a green card.

CBP even have signs up inside crossings telling these people don't bother. Says something like this:

1. Letters or identification cards issued by Metis associations or other third parties, by themselves, cannot definitively establish your American Indian blood percentage in reference to a specific Canadian Indian Band or U.S. Indian tribe.

The third party is old Hudson Bay archives and not country travel documents or to establish Indian status. People try and it because Canada was once British.

One immigration situation is not the same as another. You said you've helped someone immigrate, even if you've helped 10000's every one is different on a case by case basis.

I could give better more clear picture but most think some majic bullett exist and even locations can differ along with individual officers view on the law.

Customs agents often tell people with vacation homes from Canada--get a NEXUS. A few people have thought they'd only be interviewed and admitted one time by one officer. Never be questioned again.

When you enter your applying for a new parole from a different officer each time. Some are nicer and some can be confusing.

I was driving in Blaine, WA and stopped by the state patrol. British Columbia is government owned car insurance. So our insurance and registration are on one form. He asked: license, regisitration, and proof of insurance. Gave all to him. He came back and asked for my insurance proof card. According to him a Canadian car needed American insurance under state law. He even refused to ask someone else was 100% sure we needed some form of insurance waiver. I got the ticket and my car towed. I couldn't clear up the ticket at the state patrol because it required court!

At least the Judge gave the Cop a lesson on state and federal law. Apparently in WA if a Canadian buys a car in that state--if valid tabs you can put temp BC insurance on it and its legal for the roads. She usually gets BC drivers with no insurance tickets on WA cars with the binder. The cop thought it was all BC insurance when he herd it at the briefing.

Few months latter I get a letter from WA DOL. Drivers license suspended in WA for failure to respond or pay the ticket.

The problem cruising on the ocean that has fast access to foreign places. When stopped in near point roberts, the law enforcement you encounter can assume you went to Canada and "landed". Burden of proof is on you to prove that you have not! An actual visa or green card holder that can mess up your life!!!!!!!!

Have you ever dealt with a deportation and green card issue.

Giving a one procudure fits all is almost as nuts demanding an Indian right because of Hudson Bay signed "treaties". The Indian law in the U.S was 1954 has nothing to do with actual treaties.

Supreme Court cases can apply to individual case bases. Cops love but the Supreme Court says you can't.

Brought up the Indian issue because they have right to admission same as an American. Even with a green card sometimes they need to satisfy an immigration officer they have the 50%. Each time you cross the border (even if you have not actually left but they think you've landed or visited a hovering vessel) You need to apply for a new "parole" into the U.S.

West coast is different from Ontario--one area is rumored to be easy for NAFTA visas another nine times out of ten even lawyers ask for a senior officer. Herd even with the senior who trains the visa rules at their sector it can be several hours of mess and even returns after being denied.

Really fun getting a Canadian who was deported and even escorted out of the United States--this persons offence. His "green" card was taken because the agent didn't like his dislike of being drafted into the Vietnam war while he was on leave from the Canadian Navy. Even after grabbing the green card he was let in to take care of the no longer because they seized "canceled" green card. No "landed" immigrant status not draftable! That was 1970--the still active in their system green card was discovered around 2003/4 belonging to him--he was admitted but with a deportation order on some undocumented alien thing. Judge gave them 60 days extra "parole" to get organized to leave the United States.

They can still get into the United States but needs to prove he fits non immigrant status and still give a I94 with short "parole"!

[zudnic]

OP is NOT AN AMERICAN CITIZEN and can't license via the coast guard. Every encounter with FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT on the OCEAN ie bodies of water that lead to other countries becomes an IMMIGRATION and CUSTOM encounter! AS in applying for ENTRY. Hence why Cubans will not boat on the ocean without their green cards or other documents that they've touched land. Wet foot dry foot! Burden of proof is on you that you didn't pop back into Canada or the Bahamas, etcetera. Closer to America and further away from the other countries the better if stopped. Its still an immigration entry interview but harder to argue you visited someplace foreign for them to closer you are to being in state waters.

This law has been turned into basically a traffic stop on the water or more specific like the border patrol check points near the US/Mexico border and sometimes even the CDN/US side on land.

INA: ACT 235 - INSPECTION BY IMMIGRATION OFFICERS; EXPEDITED REMOVAL OF INADMISSIBLE ARRIVING ALIENS; REFERRAL FOR HEARING



Sec. 235. 1/ (a) Inspection.-



(1) Aliens treated as applicants for admission.-An alien present in the United States who has not been admitted, or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters) shall be deemed for purposes of this Act an applicant for admission.

[meyermm]

Wow talk about getting off track just about a history lesson on US Canadian immigration, highway patrol, court cases is someone going to write a book? Silly me of course cruising the world on state registration US = world.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Has anyone tried just shouting at the bl##dy furriners. and explaining that the correct paperwork is for peasants - like them?

Just askin'

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - As to the when a VWP visa terminates, I covered that in paragraph 3 of my post #80. Plain and clearly stated VWP is not available for recreational vessels to use - never has been. Maybe an illogical regulation but it is a political decision made by US politicians and they have never been accused of being logical.

My understanding is that the Visa Waiver Program has a foundational commitment by the scheduled carriers to pay the costs of returning any passenger not permitted entry to either their home country or the country of most recent departure. That seems quite sensible to me and explains why the VWP isn't available to recreational craft. That moves the rationale for the program from political to quite reasonable.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by arjand

I am not a US citizen.
Q: can anybody confirm that foreign countries/territories do not accept US state registration?
Q: What are possible low cost solutions?
Thanks a lot for your thoughts!

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I like that post.

As to the OPs question can I ask this, is anyone aware of state titled vessels being denied entry due to that fact. I'm not aware of it anywhere in Europe for example.
Dave

Yes, the French officials in Guadeloupe (caribbean) have sporadically rejected state registration documents. That's the only place we specifically know of any such problem.

You will be able to get around the world with a state registration - in fact most officials don't even look at the documents. But there are places (Australia, France and the USA come immediately to mind) where the officials can be difficult if they are having a bad day. State registration in a country different from your passport creates an opportunity for you to be picked as 'the nail that sticks up' that they get to hammer to let them feel better.

The 'easiest' thing for a world cruise would be to get a national document from the same country as your passport - is there a reason you don't want to do that?

[Capt Phil]

estarzinger, my sentiments exactly! This has been a really informative and entertaining thread. I particularly enjoyed the discussion about indians... cheers, Capt Phil

[zudnic]

Originally Posted by meyermm

Wow talk about getting off track just about a history lesson on US Canadian immigration, highway patrol, court cases is someone going to write a book? Silly me of course cruising the world on state registration US = world.

On topic because for a non American with a US state registration even in US of A waters can have major problems. Espicially if a state has differing CFR on implementing federal law---I love visiting Washington State its my favorite place in America. Most people always seem to like Canadians in general. Not like living in Arizona its like living in a foreign I feel alien. Don't those idiots in Law Enforcement realize that as a Canadian Citizen I don't need "immigration documents" to be legal in the U.S. UN-like at the border when I'm gaining admission into the United States I need my passport as proof that my verbal declaration under oath of Canadian Citizenship is truthful. If I wasn't a Canadian why would I have a drivers license from British Columbia that also complies under the real id act. I never get treated like an immigrant in WA. Even the state courts upheld as a Canadian citizen my private property right are equal to the citizens of this state--when I wanted to vote at the district water board and those Americans wouldn't let me................

It was really cool having the Olympics in Vancouver got to see the torch relay live when it came back from Blaine. Wow Vancoverites are ignorant why wouldn't we share this event our American friends--having Gov Gregoire carry it was cool besides half the people who live around Blaine are Canadians. But what the heck was the terminator doing running down the streets of Vancouver that jerk hates always trying to pass laws to prevent California productions companies from filming in Hollywood North--hahah Arnie its called NAFTA!!!! Vancouver RULES! Enjoy Whistler with your other A list actor buddies............. Note they love their homes in Whislter they'll teach you why BC is better than LA.....................

Why cant those Americans communicate Canadian Indians don't need to check in at any customs to enter America---they have a right to fish in Point Roberts this has been well established by the border---they just want them to get green cards so you fisheries dicks know their rights!!!!!

Point of all we can't give a one size fits all answer! Even in the United States with local rules and individual government agents! You have no idea whats going to happen---no majic bullet! The Gov of Arizona should flippin speak with Bush------Gov Gregroire explained how high value Canadians are we spend billions in the states!!!!!!!

Most of the U.S Customs Officers grew up in and around the state of Washington---- I've got into conversions with them talking about heading to Vancouver to drink because they hadn't reach the legal age in the states................... 19 in Canada. So for most who grow up in WA make trips to Van for partying. Kids from Point Roberts hanging with us in Delta. We have better ski hills, etc. Our television is mostly American Seattle based so even in Vancouver we had local Seattle programming, etcera. Canadian channels also reach our border neighbors! Seattle news stations covering the 2010 Olympics rarely said Vancouver--they'd say reporting from downtown or whistler, etcetera.

We know local history, etcetera. One of the US border crossings maced a NEXUS card holder who refused to prove his citizenship! NEWS MEDIA on both sides took the side of the NEXUS Card holder and made customs look like they are out of control!!!!!!! The guy wasn't a Canadian and lied to get a NEXUS.............................. Considering we have US Customs at Canadian ports and airports with law enforcement powers, except arrest, but they can detain with full force. They've been doing this since 1950's I can't find one incident of abuse!!!! Our RCMP on the other hand have a rep of beating people and tazering them--they've killed people with tazers!!!!!

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano arrives on Monday to tour the Olympic Coordination Center, which this week begins a pre-Olympics trial run tied to the World Police and Fire Games, an event expected to draw 12,000 athletes to Vancouver from July 31-Aug. 9.

US Homeland Security treated the Olympics like they would any American event--no fly zones and everything! Have relatives in the RCMP so I attended a few events and hung out with cops. The officers from the RCMP knew lots of American cops--they take training seminars in the states and even do exchange type stuff. Ride along with Arizona Counties Sheriffs Departments, etcetera. Not sure why but when they pass laws to combat illegal aliens and start applying them wrongly to Canadians--doing this helps with relationships. During September 11, 2001, American Airspace was closed Canada took them in. American military cannot operate inside The United States--no standing armies. A few stories of American fighter jets using Canadian bases and civil airports........

Canada was not involved in Iraq. Normally at Canadian Airshows the Americans send us the cool stuff--Blue Angels and Thunder Birds, well those years the American presence was really reduced. But they still did a few UN scheduled fly bys--they've done this with stealth bomber and even the SR-71. Almost feels like The American Military is ours as well.

Flag thing----The Canadian government rules are suggested for commonwealth holidays and if you fly it on a boat in Canadian waters only. Canadian Naval Ships can have one on the bow--In international waters if anyone attacks a Royal Canadian Warship its an act of war against both the British and Canadian Monarch! Few would dare because Id bet a million dollars few nations would dare because of America not Britain.

As both governments share Sovereigns. If I'm in a foreign country that does not have Canadian government services. I can register at the nearest British consulate in case of an emergancy. Same if consular services are needed in an emergency. This is written in my Canadian passport. I bet Id have a better chance with an American consulate convincing them of some agreement even if it doesn't exist!!!!!!! Over doing so with an uniformed Brit even when its written my passport!

What does this all mean---If I have an immigration problem in the United States, I have a much better chance of convincing them to call Blaine or even the Vancouver airport. And maybe they'll have a better understanding of how things are done usually at the CDN/US border. That Indian thing only really applies for crossing between Canada and The United States---good luck crossing even from Mexico with Indian id and explaining the 50% native blood, etcetera.

No free pass nor special treatment-----Canadians are just lucky the red tape has almost totally disappeared at the CDN/US border. Far different from even Florida. Fly from a Canadian city and if your mostly tourist activities so they stamp B2. So you take your boat out and your checked by any Fed or even some state agents. Even if you didn't leave Florida, they assume you did. Suddenly they start wondering why you have a state registered boat. Start assuming you need another visa type. Good luck explaining NAFTA to people who seldom or never done it!!!!!!! Canadians however are lucky in that most will call the right people for the local rules-------

Some CFR don't make it on the internet, etcetera. US consulates in most cases only serve citizens or legal resident immigrants of their district. So you might need to fly home from elsewhere---even Canadians. A green card holder gets into a mess your likely to be detained until its sorted out or worse investigated for or found to be deportable.....................