Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-03-2011, 03:26   #31
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Wotname, "Is just a USA thing that a Seacraft 25 can't be documented (by being too small)?"
Size is not an issue in the US. At least, not for vessel documentation. Fronm imprecise memory, it is the vessel's displacement volume that is the criteria,not the size. Size is, however, a practical rule of thumb to say "If it is that short, there's no way it can have that volume." Unless you've got one very tall, wide, short boat.<VBG>

Things sure have changed since the 1970s. In 1970, I think we actually still had a couple of battleships in commission and the concept of "Somali Pirates" would have gotten a rather abrupt resolution. Yachtsmen still were greeted as welcome tourists in most of the world and the only "papers" that really were important, were the ones spent locally. Chile wasn't charging incredible fees to visit the Galapagos. Schengen Visas and the EU didn't exist, so hopping around the med without 90 day worries was the norm. Well, unless you needed to pay for anything in lira, which made for good wallpaper and Monopoly games.

And of course, there were no live webcam feeds from McMurdo Station.

Size? Smaller, much much smaller. There's cellular service from the Mt. Everest base camps now, I hear.
Sometimes it is easy to forget that sometime in the future, today will be considered "the good old days"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misiu View Post
Right. It's 5 net tons.

From FAQ on CG Documentation Center website:

HOW DO I KNOW IF MY VESSEL MEASURES FIVE NET TONS?
Net tonnage is a measure of a vessel's volume. It should not be confused with the vessel's weight, which may also be expressed in tons. Most vessels more than 25 feet in length will measure five net tons or more. For information about how tonnage is determined, including a web-based interactive form that calculates tonnages, visit the U.S. Coast Guard Marine Safety Center's web site at the Marine Safety Center's Tonnage Page.
Interesting, FWIW, no such restriction applies to Australian national registration.
I wonder how a small american boat (less than 5 net tons) goes about departing the USA for a foreign port. Again I am assuming that the USA follows international law in that it prevents a vessel (any vessel) departing for a foreign port unless it carries a national registration.
__________________

__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2011, 05:34   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 11
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjand View Post
@ auspicious: In order to register in the Netherland (I am Dutch) I will first have to import it and pay VAT.... That would set me back USD 20k....

@ barnakiel: FP is French Polynesia?
From what I read there are 2 methods of registering a boat in the Netherlands.

Zeebrief: The official documentation, but the boat has to be in the Netherlands to get the permanent registration.

ICP: A semi-official document, intended for use in the EU alone, but accepted world wide except in France. Costs 20 euro's and can be bought from the ANWB by mail.
__________________

__________________
Androehw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2011, 12:34   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 243
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Just to let you know:
In order to get registered under Dutch flag while not based there one has to pay for a civil servant to fly over from the Netherlands, stay in a hotel and take a taxi to attach the ID number to the boat. I would like that job! :-) (not joking: there was one at this moment in Ft Lauderdale I was told).
Now talking to a notary on Curacau and doing more research on Belgium. (as an EU citizen I can register in other EU countries and as others already stated I can fly an EU flag without paying VAT until I decide to import the boat). Again: thanks everybody!
__________________
arjand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2011, 12:54   #34
Registered User
 
Aussiesuede's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC & Seattle, WA
Posts: 641
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Interesting, FWIW, no such restriction applies to Australian national registration.
I wonder how a small american boat (less than 5 net tons) goes about departing the USA for a foreign port. Again I am assuming that the USA follows international law in that it prevents a vessel (any vessel) departing for a foreign port unless it carries a national registration.

Actually Americans departing the US for a foreign port do not have to "clear out" per US regulations. It's simply suggested you fill out a Customs form (#1378) to aid in your ability to clear customs upon arrival in a foreign country. There is no attendant boat inspection, nor registry check. Of note, one should avail himself of the opportunity to declare the boats full value on the form so there is no confusion re: any potential "additions" to the vessel during it's journey (although many seem to simply ignore this bit of prudence).

This is how one is able to simply pull anchor in California & land in Hawaii, without seeing a customs agent (although EVERYONE, regardless of nationality, MUST see an Agriculture inspection agent upon arrival in Hawaii)
__________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. - (George Carlin)
Aussiesuede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2011, 13:04   #35
Registered User
 
Capt Phil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Stateline NV
Boat: Prior boats: Transpac 49; DeFever 54
Posts: 2,749
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Arjand... solved a similar problem for a non-US client by removing his vessel from USCG documentation and registering the same boat in the Cayman Islands. Was pretty straightforward but used a Marine Title Co. in Miami to help with the paperwork to make certain it was done correctly. Took about 2 months to accomplish and had to have the vessel 'measured' to meet Cayman Island requirements. Don't recall the exact costs but think it was less than $2000, including measurement costs. There are other countries who will provide you a 'Flag of Convenience' but they can be somewhat sketchy to deal with... Capt Phil
__________________
Capt Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 02:36   #36
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiesuede View Post
Actually Americans departing the US for a foreign port do not have to "clear out" per US regulations. It's simply suggested you fill out a Customs form (#1378) to aid in your ability to clear customs upon arrival in a foreign country. There is no attendant boat inspection, nor registry check. Of note, one should avail himself of the opportunity to declare the boats full value on the form so there is no confusion re: any potential "additions" to the vessel during it's journey (although many seem to simply ignore this bit of prudence).

This is how one is able to simply pull anchor in California & land in Hawaii, without seeing a customs agent (although EVERYONE, regardless of nationality, MUST see an Agriculture inspection agent upon arrival in Hawaii)
Interesting and thank you for this information. So what happens when one enters a US port, they don't care where you came from? - you just say your last port was "any USA port" and they know it must be OK because you don't need a port clearance if you have departed from said USA port.

OK I know it can't be that simple but really why won't that be the case if they don't issue a departure clearance. Immigration also doesn't care who leaves the country and by extension, who comes back in???

I am assuming all the above only applies to US citizens.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 03:29   #37
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,468
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
FWIW, for foreign vessels visiting Australia,you have to prove the nationality of the yacht and here you can ONLY do this if the yacht is on the your (or any) nations register, a state registration won't cut it.
G'Day all,

Have to disagree with the above: we have been cruising in Australia for nearly 20years off and on with two boats, each registered in Illinois. Absolutely no problems anywhere in Oz or any of the many countries visited between San Francisco and here, including several visits to French Polynesia and many visits to New Caledonia.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Towers Bay, NSW, Oz (with our Illinois registered boat)
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 04:23   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Boat: Able 50
Posts: 3,059
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Curse you Cate. Now I have to figure out where Towers Bay is.

I had to look up Morning Cove and then I was feeling mighty chuffed at already knowing Careel Bay . . . . the place has a big boatyard. Now where's that chart ?
__________________
savoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 04:57   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Boat: Able 50
Posts: 3,059
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Interesting and thank you for this information. So what happens when one enters a US port, they don't care where you came from? - you just say your last port was "any USA port" and they know it must be OK because you don't need a port clearance if you have departed from said USA port.

OK I know it can't be that simple but really why won't that be the case if they don't issue a departure clearance. Immigration also doesn't care who leaves the country and by extension, who comes back in???

I am assuming all the above only applies to US citizens.
You are right there. Some years ago I had to do my skippertorial duty and clear a crew out of the US. The woman at customs didn't give any of the US passports a second glance and went straight to the foreign ones, all of which she checked and stamped.
__________________
savoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 11:56   #40
Registered User
 
Aussiesuede's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC & Seattle, WA
Posts: 641
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Interesting and thank you for this information. So what happens when one enters a US port, they don't care where you came from? - you just say your last port was "any USA port" and they know it must be OK because you don't need a port clearance if you have departed from said USA port.

OK I know it can't be that simple but really why won't that be the case if they don't issue a departure clearance. Immigration also doesn't care who leaves the country and by extension, who comes back in???

I am assuming all the above only applies to US citizens.
As a practical matter, the US government doesn't care that you are leaving the US. As a US citizen, you are free to leave whenever you want. Now the country you are going to will likely care where you're coming from, and will want some proof of that as part of their customs procedure. When a US citizen departs the US via airplane, the government isn't the one concerned that he even has a passport. The airline has a vested financial interest in everyone having a passport because if they are denied entry to the country they are arriving in, then the airline MUST grant them passage back to where they came on the NEXT flight out. Doesn't matter if the passenger has the funds for return fare or not, the airline must grant immediate return - so the airlines will make sure you have a passport - but you never see a customs agent prior to departure.

Prior to all the 9/11 changes, an American did not even need a passport to re-enter the US. They customs agent simply asked you if you were American, where you've been, and what was the purpose of your travel. Back in the 90's, I took my German roommate who was living with me in Hawaii, over the border to Tijuana for a night of party whilst we were visiting San Diego. The numbskull forgot to bring his German passport with him over the border. I knew we'd have trouble when we came back in, so since he was drunk silly (like practically everyone else) I told him to just say "american", when asked about his citizenship. Back then, THAT was generally good enough. I about had a heart attack when they took him aside and told him he couldn't enter. They sent him bak outside. Upon my questioning of the customs agent, I was told the reason he couldn't enter was because they thought he was "too drunk to know where he was from!" lol Had he appeared more sober, his declaration would have been good enough. As it was, i had to high tail it up to San Diego to retrieve his passport and return to Tijuana to grab him since there was no way we'd have chanced declaring he was American whilst sober! Ahh, the good ole days!

So you can see how this would apply to a departure via boat as well. A US citizen has no contact with immigration prior to an international departure from the US. If one leave Florida, headed for New York, he simply pulls anchor and heads north. As a practical matter, this holds true for non US citizens as well, although if you are caught within the US beyond the parameters of your granted visa, then expect some unpleasantries. But once you are on US soil/water - you are free to move about as you please without obvious monitoring. And when transiting from one US port to another, you are deemed to still be in the US as long as you have no contact with an international destination between port calls. If a foreigner leaves Florida, goes to the Bahama, then returns to Florida in a month, then it's back to customs. If a foreigner leaves Florida headed to New York, as long as his visa is valid - there is no required visit to customs upon arrival in New York.

Hawaii presents a rather unique situation for foreigners who have visited the US mainland. Let's say you arrived in California from Mexico and processed through customs in San Diego. You are granted a 3 month visa and spend a month in San Diego then depart for Hawaii. Upon arrival in Hawaii, you are not required to visit customs. Now this point becomes pretty moot since you have to visit Hawaii state agriculture for inspection and they and customs are together. So you'll be asked about where you've just come from as a matter of course. You'll be questioned about whther or not you've stopped anyplace in between California and Hawaii. But as long as you are within you Visa, have something as simple as a grocery store receipt for a pack of gum in California, and aren't otherwise disqualified from being in the US - you won't have to go through any additional customs process upon your arrival in Hawaii, even though you've been out to sea in international waters for some 2000+ miles. The key is not having contacted any other international destination.

American boats will have either a coast guard inspection sticker, or their states registration numbers on the hull. Foreign flagged vessels will not. America has a database for everything. Someone knows what toothpaste you purchased at the market day before yesterday. "dummy" registration numbers will invite unwanted attention for those who would seek to use them. So a foreign flagged vessel is pretty easy for authorities to make out.
__________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. - (George Carlin)
Aussiesuede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 12:25   #41
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,056
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

b-
"There was no basis whatsoever for the boarding " I'm relieved to be the only cynic here. Without casting aspersion on FP, or that official, or anyone else, I would only note that there's always a reason. Mordida (how do you say that in pidgin?), or, my wife kicked me out of bed and I couldn't kick the dog, he was too fast, so I'm boarding you? Or, I've got to look busy the boss is in town, or there's a quota to be made? Or even the infamous excuse used by the TSA and other US agencies "We stop every nth person in line."
Yeah, always a reason. And then again there's that line in my passport...says something like "Greetings from the Secretary of State, this passport belongs to me and the bearer, and not to anyone else's fat fingers!" Ah, for the days of battleship diplomacy.<G>
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 12:29   #42
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,056
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

wotname-
"I... I am assuming that the USA follows international law in that it prevents a vessel (any vessel) departing for a foreign port unless it carries a national registration. "

Eh? Well, first off, we do follow international laws, AFAIK. And there's no international law that says a boat can't just up and leave someplace, AFAIK. I'm sure there are some conventions that some nations have signed but in the US?

IIRC the UK and her unruly Colonial offspring (the US) follow the tradition, unlike the USSR, that anyone may leave at any time. By any means they choose. That's right, I can just up and sail away, no permission needed.

Now, the USCG may still declare a vessel "manifestly unsafe" and turn it back to port...but that's a horse of an entirely different color. Or perhaps, the other end of the horse?<G>

No, no "zarpe" needed here. Although the way things are going...What was that about these are the good old days? (sigh)

See, that's all part and parcel of the fun of vessel documentation and statutes. In fact, unless they've gone and changed the laws again, a US documented vessel can carry international mail inbound to the USPS from a foreign post office. And when doing so, that vessel is allowed to proceed right ashore in order to turn that mail over to the USPS. No one, not even the USCG or the Homeland Security folks, is allowed to interfere with that mail delivery. Customs? Quarantine? Sorry, get in line, we're carrying the mail.

Oh yeah, that will go over well.<G>

There's also a leftover IIRC from the Treaty of Paris, that allows British vessels to navigate our Mississippi River without clearing customs. Well...not so unreasonable, after all, there were French and Indians out there back then, it wasn't really "in" the US in the usual way.

These days...perhaps you know the saying "Tell it to the judge." ?
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 22:21   #43
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
G'Day all,

Have to disagree with the above: we have been cruising in Australia for nearly 20years off and on with two boats, each registered in Illinois. Absolutely no problems anywhere in Oz or any of the many countries visited between San Francisco and here, including several visits to French Polynesia and many visits to New Caledonia.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Towers Bay, NSW, Oz (with our Illinois registered boat)
Well this is the best news I have heard for a long time in regards to officialdom, red tape etc.

Your experience would indicate that our (Aussie) gov't people are easier going on our visiting foreign friends than they are when dealing with Australian nationals.

Every Australian owned yacht that I am aware of (including my own) has had to show their Aussie Ship registration certificate when departing for an international destination. This is line with our Shipping Registration Act 1981, especially item 31 which reads:
"(1)* A Collector of Customs shall not grant a Certificate of Clearance in respect of a ship about to depart from an Australian port to a place outside Australia until the master of the ship has declared to the Collector the nationality of the ship.
************ (2)* A declaration made under subsection*(1) shall be recorded on the Certificate of Clearance."

I am not sure of the legal meaning of "declared" but my common experience of this is "show us your paperwork to back up your claim of xxx nationality of the ship".

That they accept your USA state registration as good enough is great - just makes sense really.

That they don't accept an Aussie state registration as proof of ship's nationality but stick to the letter of the law which requires all Aussie owned boats traveling internationality to be on the Australian Shipping register in sometimes (IMO) a PITA - but no point complaining, we are stuck with it.

I wonder if ALL visitors are treated the same.

What is the experience of other non-Australian yachts departing Australia recently (say last 10 years)?
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 23:22   #44
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Again my apologies to arjand for having derailed his thread but since we are almost on topic, I will go a little further here and then start a new thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
wotname-
"I... I am assuming that the USA follows international law in that it prevents a vessel (any vessel) departing for a foreign port unless it carries a national registration. "

Eh? Well, first off, we do follow international laws, AFAIK. And there's no international law that says a boat can't just up and leave someplace, AFAIK. I'm sure there are some conventions that some nations have signed but in the US?
You are probably right about "no international law etc", I was thinking "international convention" but wrote "international law" - my bad.

There certainly is a convention but as usual I can't find a link to it right now (and I was only reading it a few days ago -grr..). The Aussie Shipping Registration Act 1981 was written to enact our laws in line with the convention when Australia signed it (in 1981??). Essentially it says that a vessel bopping about on the high seas must have a "nationality" and further that signed up nations have to ensure that vessels leaving its shores (for foreign ports) have a "nationality".

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
IIRC the UK and her unruly Colonial offspring (the US) follow the tradition, unlike the USSR, that anyone may leave at any time. By any means they choose. That's right, I can just up and sail away, no permission needed.
It is essentially the same here as far as citizens go but not so far as vessels go. The person may leave (almost unhindered) but a vessel that is owned by Australians can't just leave until all the paperwork ducks are in a row. We are talking only for foreign destinations here. It would seem from Jim Cate's experience there are fewer ducks in the row for foreign owned vessels.

I say "almost unhindered" because however one leaves the country (legally), one must show a passport and it is possible that there is a federal court order preventing one from leaving (very rare) or less rarely, an outstanding child support debt. AFAIK, even the tax man can't stop you leaving unless he gets a court order but the child support man can do so without any other intervention; he just has to press a key on his computer....
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
See, that's all part and parcel of the fun of vessel documentation and statutes. In fact, unless they've gone and changed the laws again, a US documented vessel can carry international mail inbound to the USPS from a foreign post office. And when doing so, that vessel is allowed to proceed right ashore in order to turn that mail over to the USPS. No one, not even the USCG or the Homeland Security folks, is allowed to interfere with that mail delivery. Customs? Quarantine? Sorry, get in line, we're carrying the mail.

Oh yeah, that will go over well.<G>
.........
I like that, I wonder if we have the same arrangement if we are carrying mail "On Her Majesty's Service"; I do know that here the Quarantine guys have first right on entry onto an arriving vessel, ahead on Customs, Immigration, Federal Police etc and that sometimes they have to pull rank on the other guys - usually only occurs if the incoming vessel arrives close to knock off time on a Friday afternoon and everyone wants to get away first.

OK now time for a new thread.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2011, 23:33   #45
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
Re: Cruising the World with a State Registration ?

Seems to me life for US boaters would be simpler if US boat documentation was available to all U.S. craft. This seems necessary since some/many nations do not respect the sovereignty of the 50 states. Little do foreign nations know that the 50 states license the vast majority of economic activity (CPAs, barbers, attorneys at law, medical doctors, automobiles, boats, etc.) in the U.S. The US would do its citizens a favor if it considered the ignorance of some foreign nations.
__________________

__________________
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising, registration

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Country of Registration for World Cruising Ocean2Free Dollars & Cents 23 15-10-2009 17:00
Changing the state of registration for a boat. Little Otter Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 11 03-12-2008 21:08
State Registration to USCG Documentation…? dcstrng General Sailing Forum 2 07-07-2008 10:15
Cruising with state registration? chacho Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 1 28-05-2008 23:28
State registration and foreign travel phorvati Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 15 12-05-2006 14:26



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:02.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.