courtesy vs national flag

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Away from conundrums of international flagging law and back to the port!

I think I have figured out where the controversy lies between SWL and Carsten (and their respective followers). One (SWL) is talking about the port side of the person doing the passing, whilst the other (Carsten) is talking about the ship's port side. In SWL's case, it matters not where the host or skipper or whatever sits at table. If he/she passes the port to his left hand side, it will revolve in a CW rotation. If the host is stipulated as sitting at the forward end of the table, ie facing the stern, then when he passes the port to his left hand side, it will be moving towards the ship's starboard side, but still rotating in a CW manner...and thus the confusion.

NOw, lets get back to arguing about flags and when and where to fly (oops, wear) them.

Jim

Hmm... perhaps a topic for another thread but surely Gentlemen don't have a port or starboard side of their body; such terms are reserved for the vessel (and not meaning the port decanter). The Gentlemen only have a left and right side of their body. Or do I have this ar*s about as well????

I'm not sure about Ladies; perhaps they have such things. Certainly it is their prerogative to have a port or starboard side if they so wish. The dilemma is not yet resolved I fear.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I'll repeat my experience from Gibraltar. We arrived and the marina hand helped us get the lines up to the boat. The first thing he said after giving us the lines was
"ONce you have tied off - you will fly the UK courtesy flag - raise it before you do anything else"

Later that day I was walking by the Port Captains office and there was a notice on the board.

"No boats will be allowed to dock unless they are flying the courtesy flag. They are to be denied entrance to the marina until they have learned to show the proper respect"


Some places take the courtesy flag very seriously.

Read the two threads I linked to above - It is worthwhile to do it correctly.

My, how very proper & British.

In case it has not already been posted, a source. See what they look like & buy. Has anyone found a less expensive source?

Courtesy Flags

I also found this from an Indian ship dismantler. Note everything he sells is "rare Vintage"
http://stores.ebay.com/nauticalmarin...d=1&_nkw=flags

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by carstenb

The host always sits at the head of the table (the twelve o'clock position).

If I recall it right our belowed lieutenant Bligh sat also at the head of the table, except it was six o'clock position but can't remember passing the port.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Hmm... perhaps a topic for another thread but surely Gentlemen don't have a port or starboard side of their body; such terms are reserved for the vessel (and not meaning the port decanter). The Gentlemen only have a left and right side of their body. Or do I have this ar*s about as well????

I'm not sure about Ladies; perhaps they have such things. Certainly it is their prerogative to have a port or starboard side if they so wish. The dilemma is not yet resolved I fear.

Wotname - old salts (such as ourselves) don't have a left or right. We only have starboard and port (there being no such thing as right or left on a boat- except perhaps LEFTovers (but certainly no leftover port, but that is a different story).

On the neverending list of differences between the fairer sex and brutes such as us - I do believe a Lady might have a left and a right side. Certainly they sometimes seem to be concerned with details like "am I wearing my wedding ring on my port or starboard hand?"


Confusing. I find ladies fascinating creatures. I sweat, yet they only perspire Just to mention one aspect. I have also found over the course of many years and having indulged in their company, that they are able to spot a microscopically small stain on a dress shirt from several fathoms away. They can see it clearly, yet even from only an inch or two - I can't. They are also able to keep exact track of how many drinks I've had during the evening (before the port)

Of course - they are superior beings.

[rgscpat]

Were the table to be thought of as a vessel, naturally the host should be at the helm. This would fit in with where people would generally sit in the captain's quarters for dinner in a warship from the age of fighting sail, with the captain facing forward and the junior-most guess at the other, forward end of the table, facing aft and in position to give the Loyal Toast.

Though using port and starboard for the port is problematic; the port is initially moving to port, but then on its way from port midships (port-side main trimmer?) to the bowman and so on around the bow the port would now be moving to starboard, until it gets past midships and then on the end of its journey to the host it would be again be port-ward moving port. So I think we shouldn't say anything about the port moving portward or to starboard, but rather just shut up and drink the stuff and thank our kind host.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by rgscpat

Were the table to be thought of as a vessel, naturally the host should be at the helm. This would fit in with where people would generally sit in the captain's quarters for dinner in a warship from the age of fighting sail, with the captain facing forward and the junior-most guess at the other, forward end of the table, facing aft and in position to give the Loyal Toast.

Though using port and starboard for the port is problematic; the port is initially moving to port, but then on its way from port midships (port-side main trimmer?) to the bowman and so on around the bow the port would now be moving to starboard, until it gets past midships and then on the end of its journey to the host it would be again be port-ward moving port. So I think we shouldn't say anything about the port moving portward or to starboard, but rather just shut up and drink the stuff and thank our kind host.

A capital thought my good man. I'll drink to that (and to the ladies present or not)

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

But looking at your wonderful drawing, I still submit that the port was passed to starboard. Everyone knows that in aviation (and marine) terminology 12 o'clock is at the front (bow) of the boat. Think "bandits at 2 o'clock!"

So you host was at the twelve o'clock position passing the port to the gentleman at the 1 o'clock position meaning he was passing the port to starboard. The host always sits at the head of the table (the twelve o'clock position).

Carsten, what happens in your "system" when the port reaches the other end of the table? If it is passed around according to your reasoning, it means that half the occupants of the table will never have a sip, as the port will reverse direction midway.

Or does everyone go and sit on one side of the table? Pretty unstable.
Hmmm, come to think of it, is this perhaps how the the term 'tipsy' originated?



(No apologies for the thread drift - there is little to add to the OP's initial question regarding courtesy flags. The appropriate courtesy flag may or may not be the same as the host country's national flag. It is a mark of respect to fly one in good condition )

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Carsten, what happens in your "system" when the port reaches the other end of the table? If it is passed around according to your reasoning, it means that half the occupants of the table will never have a sip, as the port will reverse direction midway.

Or does everyone go and sit on one side of the table? Pretty unstable.
Hmmm, come to think of it, is this perhaps how the the term 'tipsy' originated?



(No apologies for the thread drift - there is little to add to the OP's initial question regarding courtesy flags. The appropriate courtesy flag may or may not be the same as the host country's national flag. It is a mark of respect to fly one in good condition )

Well - the Lady surrenders! Stirkes her colours and all that good stuff.

Just because I believe in equality - I'll surrender also

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by carstenb

... I find ladies fascinating creatures. I sweat, yet they only perspire ...

Actually, horses sweat, men perspire, but ladies “glisten, glow, or moisten”.

[RonRock]

That was an interesting read. Although I will say I am surprised and disappointed that SWL has flown the white flag. She is clearly the right one in this discussion. I do enjoy a spirited discussion, although my vocabulary and writing skills are nowhere near as eloquent as others here.

As to the flag thing that started the thread, I did get a much better understanding of their importance. Still not clear on their use. But do believe in respect when entering someone else s territory.

But I'm in Iowa. Just dreaming of the day I need to know all of this information. Coming soon, by then I'll know it all. I'll report back.

Cheers to all,
Ron

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

Well, I'm not very official. Canadians are pretty casual about flags in general. To be honest, we often don't fly our flag at all.

Same here..... I always fly it upside down in the Fall!
:sly: