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Old 30-12-2014, 08:54   #76
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
What I was trying to make the point, is that while some countries have made specific codification involving the Q flag, most have not, even where they may have a published "practice".

No more then recently when I was reminded that I was flying my ensign after dark, I was ticked off for doing so. I reminded the person rocking me off, the rules for the wearing of this particular countries ensign, required no such action.

We sometimes mix up custom & practice with actual laws. ( and so do some authorities )


Dave
When you say you were flying your ensign - I'm assuming you mean the boat's ensign (of the country she's registered in) and not the courtesy ensign of the country you were visiting?

If so, the "rules" - if there are any - are that the courtesy ensign stays flying 24/7 but, if alongside or on a mooring, the colours are lowered at sunset, if before 9.00pm local or at 9.00pm local if sunset occurs after 9, when it is known as "evening colours" and hoisted at 8.00am local. At sea of course, the colours remain flying 24/7.

One could then get into a learned discussion about special ensign privileges.....!! Tony
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:04   #77
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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Originally Posted by bvimatelot View Post
When you say you were flying your ensign - I'm assuming you mean the boat's ensign (of the country she's registered in) and not the courtesy ensign of the country you were visiting?

If so, the "rules" - if there are any - are that the courtesy ensign stays flying 24/7 but, if alongside or on a mooring, the colours are lowered at sunset, if before 9.00pm local or at 9.00pm local if sunset occurs after 9, when it is known as "evening colours" and hoisted at 8.00am local. At sea of course, the colours remain flying 24/7.

One could then get into a learned discussion about special ensign privileges.....!! Tony
NO, you are not correct. The rules for wearing the ensign ( I should never said flying ) are whatever rules are laid down in the applicable merchant law of the country of the flag.

For example, at on time I had both UK and an Irish registered vessels. ( and a french one as well !). The rules for the wearing of a UK ensign are codified in law. Whereas in Ireland, the merchant shipping act, merely states that an ensign most be worn to " identify the vessel ". It does not stipulate when or where. ( equally National flag rules merely apply to public buildings etc)

SO in one case there was both law and precedent and in the other merely a broad stipulation.


Hence I furled or lowered my UK ensign at sunset or followed any of her majesties warships, etc. On my irish boat, I wore my ensign 24/7.

Again, one must not mix up custom and practice ( which changes over time) with law. In Ireland , for example many yacht clubs would have stipulations as to the use of their privileged ensigns, but these do not have the force of law.

NOTE: at Sea Uk regulations do not require the wearing of an ensign and it is the habit of most merchant ships to remove it once clear of national waters


Certainly in the Med , I see ensigns worn continuously as a matter of course. I would propose that is the current custom and practice.
Dave
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:09   #78
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

Sounds like once again the Brits manage to mess it up by trying to make everyone act like they are in some kind of military unit.

I haven't flown a flag of any kind for two years. Seems so 17th century. Strike the colors.
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:37   #79
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
Sounds like once again the Brits manage to mess it up by trying to make everyone act like they are in some kind of military unit.

I haven't flown a flag of any kind for two years. Seems so 17th century. Strike the colors.

I, also, would like to think of myself as a "citizen of the Free World" but, unfortunately, I am required to have a passport...actually when I say "have", I should have said "hold" since the dam thing belongs to the government, not me.

Equally, whilst skippering a registered yacht, I am also required to obey the rules of that State with regard to the yacht, her ensign and the courtesy flag "rules" of the State I am visiting.

I don't think "the brits messed it up" but I do think that the Irish wrote a rather sloppy piece of legislation!

Enough!! I've got a boat to compound and polish and 40-odd feet of teak deck to apply some tlc to.....before the owner comes down next week!

Happy New Year to all, Tony
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Old 30-12-2014, 10:07   #80
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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I don't think "the brits messed it up" but I do think that the Irish wrote a rather sloppy piece of legislation!
You will find that many countries so not have specific legislation that applies to yacht ensigns. IN the UKs case the protocol was developed by the RN over the centuries and then codified into law. Whether that is good or bad is up to the reader.

what I do find funny , is registered boats of other countries aping the RN process. !!.

for example the French have different rules for the flying of their ensign, My understanding is that there is no requirement to lower it at sunset,

It might also interest you to know that the French ensign is not identical to the French national tricolour.
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Old 30-12-2014, 11:24   #81
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

It might also interest you to know that the French ensign is not identical to the French national tricolour.
Yes indeed - its designed to make it more visible at sea, apparently. However, the Aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle wears a different ensign again with a red cross of Lorraine in a White diamond in the middle!
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Old 30-12-2014, 12:29   #82
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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Looking over some of the links, the only country I go to (Canada) isn't on any of the list, so I assume that means they want their national colors for a courtesy flag.

I've noticed before that Canadians don't have the same customs regarding their national colors that Americans do. For instance, I've seen Canadian colors flying after dark with no light on a government building in Vancouver.

Reading this thread also leads me to the conclusion that what is wanted or what is law varies from nation to nation, so I'm going to look for an official voice on Canadian courtesy flags on an American sloop.
Well, I'm not very official. Canadians are pretty casual about flags in general. To be honest, we often don't fly our flag at all.


However, we certainly do appreciate it when an American flagged boat flies our courtesy flag (which would be the national flag).
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Old 30-12-2014, 13:34   #83
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

Away from conundrums of international flagging law and back to the port!

I think I have figured out where the controversy lies between SWL and Carsten (and their respective followers). One (SWL) is talking about the port side of the person doing the passing, whilst the other (Carsten) is talking about the ship's port side. In SWL's case, it matters not where the host or skipper or whatever sits at table. If he/she passes the port to his left hand side, it will revolve in a CW rotation. If the host is stipulated as sitting at the forward end of the table, ie facing the stern, then when he passes the port to his left hand side, it will be moving towards the ship's starboard side, but still rotating in a CW manner...and thus the confusion.

NOw, lets get back to arguing about flags and when and where to fly (oops, wear) them.

Jim
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Old 30-12-2014, 13:42   #84
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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Originally Posted by bvimatelot View Post
Yes indeed - its designed to make it more visible at sea, apparently. However, the Aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle wears a different ensign again with a red cross of Lorraine in a White diamond in the middle!
Yes the ensign of the free french forces, ( also flown by the two sail training schooners)
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Old 30-12-2014, 15:34   #85
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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I have yet to use my q flag in 30 years of sailing the med the USA , Europe and the Caribbean .

I always fly the courtesy flag on entering the national waters.
If they were on shore making fun of your ignorance, how would you know?
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Old 30-12-2014, 15:40   #86
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courtesy vs national flag

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
If they were on shore making fun of your ignorance, how would you know?

Over the years my wife has reliably informed me thAt vast numbers of people with whom I have no connection or knowledge of are making fun of my ignorance. Funnily I find if I don't know I don't care.

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Old 30-12-2014, 15:41   #87
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

I think I am going to just fly a white flag until someone develops an App for this:....confused:
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Old 30-12-2014, 15:44   #88
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Over the years my wife has reliably informed me thAt vast numbers of people with whom I have no connection or knowledge of are making fun of my ignorance. Funnily I find if I don't know I don't care,
Then you'll be fine. My son had the same idea.
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Old 30-12-2014, 16:00   #89
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

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If they were on shore making fun of your ignorance, how would you know?
You will always know when a frenchman pharts in your general direction.......

Back on topic and back to the port.... I would wager that most of them on this thread as pass the port to starboard don't know the Bishop of Norwich...
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Old 30-12-2014, 19:22   #90
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Re: courtesy vs national flag

He's a terribly good chap, but he always forgets to pass the port
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