Contagion spreads from Florida to Exumas

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I think he looks over at the Cayman's and says, why can't we get money like that, we need to keep the riff raff out and the Rich will come.

That has been tried many time in the Bahamas. Look at Chub Key. Don't want any riff raff, charge $4.50 a foot fo a dock. Don't want the riff raff in your store, charge $100 to land your dinghy. I a year or two you'll be bankrupt. There just aren't enough megarich to keep many places going.

I went to Harbor Island once. Paid an outrageous amount of money for a fish dinner. Paid a dive shop to go diving. Worst dive I've ever paid for. Dive deep, swim fast, and burn a tank of air as fast as the dive master can get you to do it so he can get back to the shop in record time. No thanks, I won't be going back there.

The answer to a 50% drop in business is to raise prices 50%. Supply and demand apparently does not apply in the Bahamas. Revenues are down because boats are not coming anymore, raise the entry fee, add an anchoring fee. Water's getting polluted raise the fees. You wouldn't want to put in pumpout stations. OOh wait, how about pumpout boats. It works in Georgetown, but wait that was an NGO that arranged that, so I guess we'll just have to listen to the minister whine. By the way the pumpout boat is also the garbage boat. $20 for a pumpout and 3$ a bag for garbage.

The last time they raised the entry fee it practically destroyed Bimini, but I guess the guys in Nassau and Grand Bahama don't much care about the out Islanders.

[RTB]

Originally Posted by rourkeh

Good article.
About half of all cruising sailboaters think they have a right to buy a boat sail south, invade some foreign country and abuse the privilege. I have been cruising the Bahamas and Caribbean for a lot of years and have slowly watched as an ever larger number of broke ass boaters invade the islands trying to "live the dream on $500 a month", what a joke. Owning a boat is a privilege, it is a toy. If you can not afford to travel in your toy and be responsible with your sewage and garbage you should stay home.
This all started in America years ago when the towns along the intracoastal got sick of picking up after a bunch of boaters and started banning anchoring in a number of towns. I currently live in a marina in St Maarten and regularly watch the sailboaters anchored out come to the dingy dock and dump their garbage on the sidewalks, walk their dogs on the marina property, sneak into the marina showers, dingy in at night and steal water from peoples hoses etc. And we wonder why we are not welcomed with open arms in the Bahamas? I have seen what has happened to Georgtown Harbour, it has turned into a floating American retirement community after hurricane season ends. News flash, half of the cruisers out there don't have enough money to be cruising, all you need to do is read the ridiculous articles on this site about what it costs to "go cruising".
I hope they put mooring balls everywhere and charge enough to weed out the people who can't afford to be down here in the first place. They are ruining the dream for the rest of us with their over blown sense of entitlement. It's interesting that you don't see too many financially responsible boaters in the Caribbean sneaking into marinas to shower or dumping their sewage into pristine tropical waters.
The Bahamians and the rest of the pissed off islanders have a point. If you want to come for a visit spend some money like all the other tourists, be responsible or stay home.

That's some nice pot-stirring, but much of what you say can't be denied. It looks like Mr. Carey isn't the only one with ideas - From Fisheries chief: Visiting boaters cost us millions | The Tribune

Mr LaRoda then blasted: “We have serious problems with day trippers out of Florida coming here, raiding the traps of Bahamians and taking the fish back home.
#“We lose millions of dollars through that alone. There are at least 30 day trippers coming into the Bahamas on a daily basis, into the northern Bahamas through the Cay Sal channel, and the fish go back to Florida.”
#The BCFA chief said Mr Carey was wrong to retract his remarks, adding that the BNT executive director was simply telling “the truth”.
#Acknowledging that this would hurt some persons’ feelings, Mr LaRoda dismissed the threats by boaters to abandon or bypass the Bahamas, saying they had nowhere else to go.
#“We need not worry about the boaters coming out of Florida saying they will not come here,” he told Tribune Business. “Proximity alone; where else are they going to go?
#“That’s why they take advantage of us. We think we’re losing out, but we’re not. Where else are they going to go?”

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So, it's not just cruiser's that are getting on the Bahamas bad side.

Ralph

[RTB]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

It works in Georgetown, but wait that was an NGO that arranged that, so I guess we'll just have to listen to the minister whine. By the way the pumpout boat is also the garbage boat. $20 for a pumpout and 3$ a bag for garbage.

There was no pump out boat when we were there last May/June (that I saw). Anyone know if they have it operating?

Hey, there were plenty of Canadians in the Bahamas when we were there. Hopefully they are included in this discussion....

Ralph

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by kentobin

He's a politician and all politicians want revenue like an alcoholic wants booze. Get a small special interest group with no political clout and you have a tax.

I'm not saying there might not be some merit to what he's saying. The world is getting more crowded. There are definitely more cruisers making a physical impact on the environment and at some point it won't be able to recover unless it's regulated. To do that you need money to enforce them and money to manage your resources.

It's when the money gets put in the general fund and doesn't help the people paying it that I get livid.

I remember some 25 years ago a friend of mine felt that with the advent of gps any idiot could now navigate and that pristine anchorages all over the world would now be destroyed. He might of been right.

REGULATED, MANAGED - Hmmmmmmm That means we raise the rates until the problem (tourists) goes away. Money is totally fungible, If the charges are excessive or unfairly, unreasonably applied, it will find another place. BTW, do they plan to enforce the same requirements on local vessels? Is this sort of like the AIS requirement in Thailand EXCEPT for all local vessels, representing most of the total? Very easy to kill the golden goose.

[CSY Man]

Day Trippers?

Before 9-11 and increased Security There was some Day Trippers shooting over from Miami on 26' SeaRays and the like and going back to Florida without checking in, fly The flag, but Don't pay The price.
Easy to Get away with as The Bahamaians did not have fuel for their patrol boats and nobody was checking nothing.
After 9-11 the U.S. Government started pumping money into the Bahamas Border Protection and also kept USCG Cutters
of the Bimini coast in case Al-Queda had evil plans to launch attacks on U.S. big fat targets like cruise ships coming out of Miami or Fort Lauderdale with 5000 pax and crews. More soft targets than 9-11.



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[Vasco]

I have seen the mega developments come and go in the out islands as the world economy goes through its cycles. I have seen the fees go up for cruisers. I have seen the bitching and moaning. (politicians and cruisers). But in the final analysis the Bahamas changes very slowly and in very little ways. The beauty of these islands is the people, not the rulers in Nassau nor the expat landowners. It's the Bahamians in the family islands. The cruising grounds have changed very little in the time I've been cruising there. The people are honest and friendly. What more can you ask for.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Vasco

I have seen the mega developments come and go in the out islands as the world economy goes through its cycles. I have seen the fees go up for cruisers. I have seen the bitching and moaning. (politicians and cruisers). But in the final analysis the Bahamas changes very slowly and in very little ways. The beauty of these islands is the people, not the rulers in Nassau nor the expat landowners. It's the Bahamians in the family islands. The cruising grounds have changed very little in the time I've been cruising there. The people are honest and friendly. What more can you ask for.

Well said.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by RTB

There was no pump out boat when we were there last May/June (that I saw). Anyone know if they have it operating?

Hey, there were plenty of Canadians in the Bahamas when we were there. Hopefully they are included in this discussion....

Ralph

I can't say what was going on in May and June but the pumpout boat was functioning if a bit irregularly at the end of April when I headed North. It was working last year as well.

I think Mr. Carey is delusional if he thinks that US boats are crossing to raid Bahamian lobster and fish traps. First of all Bahamians don't use Lobster traps, they use casitas. While a small minority of cruisers might dive on a casita now and then (I don't personally Know of anyone who has done this) I seriously doubt it is a major problem. It seems to me that Mr. Carey is not referring to cruisers, but to sports fishermen. The typical cruising boat is not outfitted to take large hauls of fish out of the Bahamas. The comment on lion fish was most telling. For the last two years there has been an ongoing campaign to get people to kill lionfish to save the Bahamian food fish industry, including asking people to kill them in places where spearfishing is not normally allowed like in Elizabeth Harbor. The harbor master even announced it on the cruisers net. Yet Mr. Carey bemoans the plight of the poor lionfish.

I am personally emptying the ocean of fish. Last year I caught 1 skipjack tuna, 1 Cero Mackeral, 1 nassau grouper and 4 lobster. Where I really did the damage however was the couple of dozen conch salads and fish sandwiches I ate, all of which were purchased from bahamians. Somehow I managed to spend about $6000 in the Bahamas last year, but I guess that has no Value to Mr. Carey. That $100 I gave to the BNT, won't be coming next year.

Clearly Mr. Carey has supporters as evidenced by the other comments. I would really like know if anyone here on the forum has ever taken back a significant amount of fish to the US when they left the Bahamas. I once had a piece of Mahi that we had not eaten yet in my freezer and that has been once in four trips. Maybe I'm unusual, but I don't think I'm that unusual. I think this is simply another case where it's easier to blame the outsiders than to take responsibility for your own problems.

[Captain Bill]

I just jumped over to the BNT web site to see about sharing my views on Mr. Carey's comments and found this.

The Bahamas National Trust - Press releases - BNT Teams Up with Yachting Website

I guess Mr. Carey is no longer going to need support from us Riff Raff for his organization.

[RTB]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I think this is simply another case where it's easier to blame the outsiders than to take responsibility for your own problems.

I haven't fished in the Bahamas, but did buy 6 nice tails from a local fishing boat in Bimini *out of season*. This was early last May, and the season was closed starting April 1.

I strongly agree with Vasco. The Bahamas is where we will return to when we head out again. I doubt that Mr. Carey cares that we are coming all the way from Texas.... and the Exumas will get all of our money. Eleuthera and Abaco just doesn't compare (for me).

Ralph

[Andy73]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Andy,
You don't have to agree with Rourkeh but you must admit his honesty and candor is refreshing. And, he has made some valid points. Wouldn't it be a dull world if everyone thought the same. This is what Albert Camus called "Hell."

As I said, I agree there is a problem with people not being... responsible for themselves I guess would be the best way to describe it.

I disagree wholeheartedly with his proposed solution of just raising the cost of participating until only those people who were "worthy" could afford it; or the characterization that only rich people are responsible (again, my word not his). I know as many wealthy people who are rude and irresponsible as I do poor people who are the same. It is not a class issue unless you implement so many services that you guarantee only rich people can afford it.... If that is what he really wants, there are many places which already exist where you can experience this type of environment.

If the Bahamas (or any group) wanted to impose strict fines for littering/trash etc, or implement and impose mandatory pump out rules, or any other type of regulation which specifically targets people who are in the wrong, then I would at least theoretically support it.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I just jumped over to the BNT web site to see about sharing my views on Mr. Carey's comments and found this.

The Bahamas National Trust - Press releases - BNT Teams Up with Yachting Website

I guess Mr. Carey is no longer going to need support from us Riff Raff for his organization.

I think that's a pretty good move on their part actually.

I used to work in grants at the NSF, my wife worked for the National WWII Memorial Trust Fund, my aunt is on the grants board at the Templeton Foundation, and we have very close friends that work with the Elizabeth Dole foundation, and American Battle Monuments Commission.

So, as you can imagine we have great conversations on this topic. Its the one way that both the not-so-wealthy and the super wealthy can come together to build something that everyone profits from equally.

Going for grants to support the park is a great way to raise money and if it defers some of the costs that are going to be passed on to regular cruisers then that's even better. Its not like the superyachts can go everywhere we go and there are a lot of owners in the Bahamas that have superyachts. Plus, if managed well, it'll potentially create new a new grant stream for other projects, more parks, and jobs.

Despite what many think, being wealthy enough to own a superyacht doesn't automatically make one a jerk. As you know there are a lot of wealthy people out there providing grant monies for worthy causes and in many cases, there is simply not enough grants for wealthy people to support. I know its hard to believe but its true. The wealthy are very savvy and they want to know that money they are contributing is actually going to make a difference; so many foundations groups are managed very poorly. Thats the reason you see so many influential people on the boards, they want to make sure they manage the money and the mission well, plus its a mostly agreeable way to contribute to society and make a difference.

[onestepcsy37]

Originally Posted by RTB

There are at least 30 day trippers coming into the Bahamas on a daily basis, into the northern Bahamas through the Cay Sal channel

Did any of you navigators catch the ridiculousness of that route? Day tripper from Florida to the Northern Bahamas via the Cay Sal Channel? Another Bahamian official in Nassau who probably has never gone further than Parliament Square.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by onestepcsy37

Did any of you navigators catch the ridiculousness of that route? Day tripper from Florida to the Northern Bahamas via the Cay Sal Channel? Another Bahamian official in Nassau who probably has never gone further than Parliament Square.

I did notice that, obviously a know nothing. Back when the EEZs were first established Bahamian patrol boats started arresting people and confiscating boats right up to the US 12 mile limit. They claimed that the Bahamian EEZ right up to our territorial waters. Several boats were confiscated 12 miles off of Sebastian inlet before the state department negotiated the line. One must remember that the the Bahamas EEZ lies roughly 1/2 way between the US and the Bahamas and that technically you are not allowed to fish in their EEZ without checking in, paying for your permit and following their bag limits. Between Miami and Bimini that's only 24 miles off shore from the US. While many day tripper fishermen probably technically cross this line from south florida everyday, I seriously doubt that anyone "sneaks" all the way to the Exumas to poach fish, and it certainly does not pertain to cruisers. Also the BDF has become quite active in checking papers, I was boarded last season and had my papers checked in Highbourne Cay.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by colemj

If the BVI's are "what cruising is really about", I guess I don't want to experience much "real" cruising…

Mark

Exactly. In some BVI anchorages, you don't need a dinghy. You can almost just jump from boat to boat until make it to the beach.