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Old 25-01-2008, 17:58   #1
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Compliant and Complacent

New regulations controlling Cruisers, sailing both locally and on International waters are becoming more popular with some governments. The active thread “Idiot or Hero” identifies some of the issues and within that, Kanani’s experience in New Zealand highlights the trend of government control.

Soon following this trend, it may become mandatory that all pleasure vessels and their operator pay for the privilege to be annually certified safe, carry 3rd party liability and be regulated as to where and how far out to sea they can travel. All of this with the attending marine police to inspect and enforce.

1. Is that what you want?
2. What alternative can yachtsman offer the government to absolve them of responsibility?
3. Are you complacent about this?
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Old 25-01-2008, 18:17   #2
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The Govt. (no Govt) is responsible for individuals who choose of their own free will to sail into the open ocean aboard a small boat so there is nothing to absolve them of.

Their desire to "regulate" has everything to do with money and power and little to nothing to do with their being responsible for the consequences of such action.

I am 100% against this kind of thing and I am not complacent about it. Should Govt. decide to implement draconian "cruising" regulations that in fact serve to infringe upon the right of free individuals to exercise their freedom and go cruising while taking personal responsibility for whatever may happen... I will consider it my responsibility to exercise civil disobedience and fight against such efforts while also choosing to circumvent them, ignore them and do whatever else I can to undermine them.

Every other free individual should do the same.



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Old 25-01-2008, 18:27   #3
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I don't think we should be complacent, part of the problem may be that most sailors are not aware of changes to the regulations until they happen. Often the powers that be either don't put the info out there for you to be able to contribute to the discussion, or if it is available it is couched in terms that don't raise alarms. See the lack of info re the new Aussie regs and the disaster they have caused to several yachtspeople who got caught up in that.
I noticed on the tin (sheet alloy) boat thread that Alan said the NZ (Govt?) is going to try to legislate for foreign flag vessels again, now I have not heard a thing about that yet I try to keep my ear to the grapevine. If the Yachting (repair) industry knows about it they don't appear to (know?) be doing anything about it.
Governments are all about control and of course whatever it is they are doing is sold as being for our own good. One of the latest things that is showing up in local Govt news letters is the statement that "you" asked for it. whether it is for increased no.of parking wardens or banning alcohol on beaches etc, They never asked me nor anyone I know of, yet you think well they must have asked somebody. Maybe not! An easy way to get you to accept whatever they decide is good for you.
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Old 26-01-2008, 17:34   #4
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I'm going to play a little bit of the devil's advocate here: For the areas that seem intent upon enacting rules/regulations/laws - most of these things, in the quasi-democratic societies that most of us belong to, have to have SOMEONE or some body vote to create new rules/laws. MOST boaters/cruisers do not LIVE (and/or are NOT registered) for the area that wants to create these regulations.

I KNOW that in the three harbors that I've spent a majority of my past 7 years, only one marina had more than a couple of people actually living in the same COUNTY (let alone city or municipality) and were eligible to vote (I'll presume they actually did). In MOST cases - boaters don't live in the same area. Therefore, they don't get to vote on the boating part of their lives ... just the land based. Here in the US, only about 1/2 of the eligible voters do so (mostly only if there is a presidential vote upcoming).

In my current marina, we have (almost unheard of) 50% liveaboards. 90% of those are registered to vote. That still only gives us about 300 votes out of the 15,000 that vote in this city or 40,000 in the county.

FYI FWIW
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Old 26-01-2008, 17:59   #5
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Comments above and accepting Elusive’s figures, only seems to confirm that sailors are loosing control of the freedom to go to sea in a craft of their choosing, whenever they feel the urge

I can easily imagine that with increased terrorist concerns and security costs, monitoring and control of yachtsmen on every voyage from the dock has become more attractive to governments.

Is anyone aware of an International Yachtsman’s Lobbying Group that could voice our concerns that traditions of freedom are being eroded and offer practical solutions like “user pays” on the cost of rescue? Seems to me, we need something like that to keep things open and transparent.
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Old 26-01-2008, 18:14   #6
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I would like to see the "Boat Manufacturers" establish some sort of organization (other than JUST manufacturers) that would include boat owners, marinas and any other "water" related organization or club that, I would think, would be more than happy to have some say in the future of, not only the people involved in boating, but for the advancement of our waterways.

When you think about it, there are probably millions of people involved in the MARINE INDUSTRY........ just a thought.
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Old 26-01-2008, 18:47   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Cotton View Post
I would like to see the "Boat Manufacturers" establish some sort of organization (other than JUST manufacturers) that would include boat owners, marinas and any other "water" related organization or club that, I would think, would be more than happy to have some say in the future of, not only the people involved in boating, but for the advancement of our waterways.

When you think about it, there are probably millions of people involved in the MARINE INDUSTRY........ just a thought.
Reading this thread makes me a bit queasy. The main reason I like boats is the solitude and freedom. If anyone is going to regulate away my freedom, I wouldn't even want to own a boat, period. If the freedom is gone, what's the difference between a boat and land, really?

Maybe if people are less interested in boating because there is no freedom, it will awaken the industry, as mentioned above.
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Old 26-01-2008, 19:27   #8
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I agree, the entire reason on why I am focused on saving my money for purchase a boat is for the independence and freedom it "should" provide to varying degrees. I am getting sick and tired of Government departments hiding behind the old "terrorist" crap to have free reign to do what they want because it is for our own protection and good.

The only terrorist I see in full swing are the agencies themselves. These "terrorists" aren't doing anything to us personally, but the Governments surely are!! I will always go back to one of my favorite sayings:

"it's great to be a parent, but DON'T be my parent"

I am old enough to figure out what is safe for me and if I do make a wrong choice or decision, that is totally my fault and I will handle it. I don't need anyone or agency to hold my hand and cuddle me into a glass house.

Just my .00000000000000002 cents.

As most of you, I also despise people telling me what I can and cannot do!!

(before anyone starts being shocked or offended by my thoughts, it is exactly that my opinion and thoughts of observation!! Also, before people start ranting about my terrorist comparison, just remember what a terrorist is supposed to be: Something that keeps people in fear, takes away their rights on all levels, etc.. You tell me exactly who is doing that!!)
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Old 26-01-2008, 20:09   #9
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If you are not free now then you won't be free when you step on a boat. Boats won't make you more than you arlready are but they may force you to be things you only thought you were.
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Old 26-01-2008, 20:48   #10
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Discussing the removal of any personal freedom is an emotional issue and while I feel it also, right now I am more interested in problem solving the best way that we can collectively and responsibly fend off the trend of paranoia.

To clarify Paul, we are discussing increased legislation to physically control cruisers.

High Cotton’s suggestion may not work initially because some boat equipment, manufacturers and services would see a profit to be made in increased regulations and quietly support it. As Sean says, let them know that they are killing the golden goose if cruising freedoms and common sense enforcement are legislated away.

I can give you many examples of this already happening on the super yacht level and even some successes in fighting it, but how do we give voice to all the cruisers out there so that over regulation does not become a reality.

Should the various cruising Forums band together on this issue and give us a collective platform to discuss and I imagine, provide a powerful voice to balance the voice of the clerics?
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Old 27-01-2008, 00:07   #11
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If you are not free now then you won't be free when you step on a boat. Boats won't make you more than you already are but they may force you to be things you only thought you were.
Wow! them's deep words Paul
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Old 27-01-2008, 03:16   #12
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now, if you were in jail, escaping from a prison then setting sail in a boat could make you free?
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Old 27-01-2008, 03:27   #13
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Paul,
You remind me of the section on freedom from Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet.
The Prophet

I can't speak to the restrictions on cruising in other parts of the world but it is a mistake to think that in the US we have no influence in the legislation that affects boating. There is not a villian somewhere, waxing his handlebar mustache, rubbing his hands and thinking "what limiting law can I pass today". Most regulations, especially local ones are the result of lobbying by professional groups and private citizens. There a numerous groups one can joi,n BoatUS is one one US example that works influence the legislative process. ARRL is an example of a group working in the area of radio communications that relates to cruisers. When the Corps of Engineers reworked the Galveson Bay ship channel our cruising club called in a number of local politicians and regulators to explain what was happening and listen to our input. We received a great new anchorage in returrn!

Thomas' point is well taken. If influence is needed, get involved, but don't simply vote. Gather a list of your politicians and some local regulators you are concerned about and send off a letter or two each week. Finally, don't depend on the local news to report problems before they arise. There is nothing sensational about closing an anchorage.
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Old 27-01-2008, 04:41   #14
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"All politics are local"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Is anyone aware of an International Yachtsman’s Lobbying Group that could voice our concerns that traditions of freedom are being eroded and offer practical solutions like “user pays” on the cost of rescue? Seems to me, we need something like that to keep things open and transparent.
There's a saying: "All politics are local." What that means is, the only way to exercise influence in the political arena is through local avenues. "Local" meaning one-on-one with the public officials who have a "local" axe to grind. International lobbying doesn't work very well. High Cotton's suggestion is right on target--mobilize the marine trades who depend on yachting for their existence.

When the various Caribbean island nations were in the process of implementing the Advance Passenger Information System last year (which would place intolerable reporting burdens and voyage scheduling requirements on small yacht sailors), it was the Caribbean Marine Trade Association (chandleries, marinas, service suppliers), the Caribbean Compass newspaper, Caribbean sailing guide author Chris Doyle, and individual yacht owners who got it turned around
. They accomplished this by directly contacting individual local officials and letting them know what the negative "unintended consequences" of this misguided beaureaucratic monstrosity would be.

The "tourism officials" didn't know what the "immigration officials" were up to in this case
. On most of the islands down here, yachting tourism is recognized as a valuable part of the all-important tourism sector. When the tourism officials had the picture painted for them, they made certain that some rationality was injected into the situation in order to protect their interests.

The natural course of beaureaucracy is to add more beaureaucracy--to "save us from ourselves"
. The only way to effectively fight it is to find the right leverage at the local level and exercise it.
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Old 27-01-2008, 07:13   #15
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The natural course of beaureaucracy is to add more beaureaucracy--to "save us from ourselves".
You are sadly very correct. Every year its something new we need to be saved from. Global warming, smoking in bars, transfat in restaurants, ect., ect., ect.
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