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Old 07-09-2009, 12:30   #16
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We all should beware of written test to prove competance.

In another stage of my life, I was a member of an Avaition Company in the National Guard. I'd asked for and received a position in the air traffic control section. A year pasted and I was ordered to take the FAA first level qualification exam, never mind that I'd never gone to school. The test was administered by a Regular Army examiner and was multiple choice. It took me four hours to complete. 70 was passing and I received a 74!!
Technicality I was now a qualified first level air traffic controller. The pilots were upset!
Its becoming a scary world out there as competent knowledge and common sense is being replaced by a piece of paper.
regards John
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Old 07-09-2009, 15:22   #17
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most sailing certs are both theory and practical based
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Old 07-09-2009, 17:20   #18
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John is right. But it is also true that another mod of the scary world is when a sailor cannot go sailing (his own boat) because a politician convinced part of the society that he knows better what it takes to safely sail a boat than the sailor knows herself/himself.

Controlling air traffic is a top responsibility, top tension job. One mistake and many people die. Sailing is a pastime or a passion.

My vision of the right balance is for the state to make an efficient and serious effort to convince the sailor that she/he can improve their skills and knowledge by participating in various courses and trainings.

But if the state starts by saying that we cannot do this or that without a license then I call it the police state.

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Old 08-09-2009, 02:21   #19
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As to compulsory certification, there is a debate and its not about "police state" either. where i live no certification is required, but everytime a mar1ne acident occurrs the "general public" is horriffied to discover that anyone with no experience whatsoever can take out a 15ton, 30 knots mobo and drive it around with no knowledge oh collision regs, nav etc.
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Old 08-09-2009, 11:54   #20
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OK then if drivers of 15t, 30 knots boats make damage, then they should be punished, and maybe licensed. Definitely: trained and insured.

This does not imply everybody has to be licensed, which is the attitude of many states - a huge powerboat crashes someone and all folkboat sailors required to get a certificate (???) C'mon, where is the sense here?

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Old 08-09-2009, 12:26   #21
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I hold a RYA Yachtmaster, but was not able to get the ICC since it is for residents of the UK (I'm American, but was living in Belgium). Since I had also taken the ASA courses they did issue a Certificate. I carried that Certificate, my YM certificate, the ASA course certificates during 3 years of sailing in Northern Europe and the Med. No one ever asked to see any of these. Because we were American flagged we were checked for VAT complience.

This tread was started by Cruisingkitty, from Ireland. Pelagic and others correctly cover things you should know, but I'll add that if you plan to be sailing around the UK or Northern Europe, with tidal ranges up to 40 ft, the RYA courses are excellent for learning this required skill.
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Old 12-02-2013, 14:45   #22
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Re: Competence Certificates - What Is Equivalent?

Old thread but relevant to my question.

I am considering doing an Atlantic Circuit and am trying to understand what hoops I need to jump through to sail in European waters.

Elsewhere I have seen reference to needing some kind of certificate of competency.

I am a dual US/Canadian. As a Canadian I have a Canadian Boating License.

But living in the US at the moment I suppose I could go get a six pack license.

Is this stuff necessary? Am I worrying needlessly?

If not does the Canadian Boating License do me any good?

If not does the USCG six pack license do me any good?

If not, then what?
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Old 12-02-2013, 14:57   #23
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Re: Competence Certificates - What Is Equivalent?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
This ICC - anybody knows a place on the web where I can read on what levels / skills / training they offer / certify? I tried last year and found hardly any usable information.

b.
The Irish Sailing Association has a good guide to ICC

http://www.irishsailingassociation.c...0the%20ICC.pdf
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Old 12-02-2013, 15:01   #24
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Re: Competence Certificates - What Is Equivalent?

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Old thread but relevant to my question.

I am considering doing an Atlantic Circuit and am trying to understand what hoops I need to jump through to sail in European waters.

Elsewhere I have seen reference to needing some kind of certificate of competency.

I am a dual US/Canadian. As a Canadian I have a Canadian Boating License.

But living in the US at the moment I suppose I could go get a six pack license.

Is this stuff necessary? Am I worrying needlessly?

If not does the Canadian Boating License do me any good?

If not does the USCG six pack license do me any good?

If not, then what?
The Canadian PCOC is a pretty minimal standard.

Learning is always good. Learning from experienced instructors will probably allow you to learn from their mistakes.

An ICC will not hurt. There an some folks in North America who can issue them.
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Old 12-02-2013, 15:58   #25
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Re: Competence Certificates - What Is Equivalent?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
John is right. But it is also true that another mod of the scary world is when a sailor cannot go sailing (his own boat) because a politician convinced part of the society that he knows better what it takes to safely sail a boat than the sailor knows herself/himself.

b.
Unfortunatly their are ALOT of idiots who don't know a thing, but they have money and buy a big boat.....THAT is where the problem is! IMHO.
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Old 13-02-2013, 06:20   #26
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Cool Re: Competence Certificates - What Is Equivalent?

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Old thread but relevant to my question.

I am considering doing an Atlantic Circuit and am trying to understand what hoops I need to jump through to sail in European waters.

Elsewhere I have seen reference to needing some kind of certificate of competency.

I am a dual US/Canadian. As a Canadian I have a Canadian Boating License.

But living in the US at the moment I suppose I could go get a six pack license.

Is this stuff necessary? Am I worrying needlessly?

If not does the Canadian Boating License do me any good?

If not does the USCG six pack license do me any good?

If not, then what?
Hi,
I am the one who started the thread in 2009, and over the years, no one has really been able to clarify the answer because no international body has yet attempted to standardize the certifications for non-commercial licenses, even though cruising the world is a global thing. The reason I started the thread is because I am American with an USCG OUPV Captain's license, living in Ireland and I had been reading about restrictions being imposed in European waters by some countries (e.g., France). So I wanted to know if I needed an ICC. I now know that it's mainly inland water restrictions that are being imposed.

Now having cruised many thousands of miles including three Atlantic crossings, my observations are:
  1. No one has ever asked to see a license (but I haven't sailed in France yet - albeit have been to French islands)
  2. The USCG OUPV has been useful for a number of things, including knowledge gained, insurance discount, credibility, and information that was helpful in ocean sailing (in depth practice with Rules of the Road, etc) I also took advanced navigation classes and so on beyond that. No sailor ever stops learning. That's the beauty of it. It's important to note that the USCG OUPV and Master's licenses are commercial licenses. They govern whether you can charge money for a boating service.
  3. The RYA Yachtmaster is a good recreational boating program, but I find that because RYA is a commercial venture they have far exceeded their remit for providing basic education - it's like they are making up new requirements for certification so they can conduct more courses and make more money, an EU phenomenon that is choking countries with certifications. Also, although the RYA Yachtmaster has a practical side of actually checking how a person handles a boat (which the OUPV does not), the total amount of experience required for qualification is far less than required for a USCG captain's license. To get a USCG license you must document an enormous amount of time on the water. A USCG license must also be renewed periodically with evidence of continued experience on the sea.
  4. No one has a clear idea of what any of the licenses mean and, in my opinion, the ISAF should.
[/LIST]
I have the study book for the Canadian license you mention. I am afraid that the Canadian license is much like the basic USCG safe boating license which doesn't really prepare one for much beyond your local harbour.

I am glad I went for the USCG license. I learned some things I didn't know and refreshed some others that I'd learned early on. It would allow me to take out 6 people for hire aboard our boat or any other boat in US waters or aboard a US flagged vessel in foreign waters. It also gives me security clearance in commercial ports through the TWIC card associated with it. That's very good for US waters and even shows up when going through security in airports.

My husband went a step further and did the USCG Master's license with sailing and towing endorsements. That is a professional license which qualifies him to drive a commercial vessel - anywhere, as it provides the minimal STCW certs which are internationally recognized. Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping A master mariner license is recognized in 180 countries. It also means he is responsible for all the paperwork when we clear in to a new country!

A master mariner is very different from a yachtmaster. I do not believe a yachtmaster is STCW certified. Please correct me if I am wrong.

So if I were to give you advice, I'd say go for the Master Mariner license. You get the OUPV first, then complete the Master training. Some insurance companies will view that very positively. We know a couple who were forced by their insurance company to hire a Master Mariner to sail with them across the Atlantic, even though they had sailed for most of their lives and had owned that vessel for several years.

Also, get your HAM radio license while in the US. You'll need it just about everywhere else overseas if you have an SSB or HAM, and it is FAR easier to get in the US than elsewhere.

I don't know if this helps at all. But thanks to all who contributed their experience and expertise to this thread over the years.
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Old 13-02-2013, 06:55   #27
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Re: Competence Certificates - What Is Equivalent?

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Unfortunatly their are ALOT of idiots who don't know a thing, but they have money and buy a big boat.....THAT is where the problem is! IMHO.

i agree with you 100%. i remember a year or so ago there were poster who literary asked what is meaning of the "lower number next to chart depth units".





and as far as i remember he owned the boat and was sailing for two years already.
the posters thread is still somewhere there on CF.
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Old 13-02-2013, 07:12   #28
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pirate Re: Competence Certificates - What Is Equivalent?

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i agree with you 100%. i remember a year or so ago there were poster who literary asked what is meaning of the "lower number next to chart depth units".





and as far as i remember he owned the boat and was sailing for two years already.
the posters thread is still somewhere there on CF.
Silly Buga....
Every one knows it means it could be 9foot.... but then again it could be 4foot...
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Old 13-02-2013, 08:13   #29
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Re: Competence Certificates - What Is Equivalent?

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Silly Buga....
Every one knows it means it could be 9foot.... but then again it could be 4foot...

Of course, a chart in fathoms and feet does not include a subscript larger than 5.
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Old 13-02-2013, 08:34   #30
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Re: Competence Certificates - What Is Equivalent?

No, silly folks...these lower numbers translate to...How would you like to buy a new keel? Mauritz
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