COLREGS - vessel under oars

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by tomfl

I was always taught the most burdened boat has the right of way. No way a 700 foot tanker in a narrow channel is required to give way to a 12 foot sailing dinghy that draws inches and can be beached with ease.

As others have posted there are also a large range of boats powered by oars/paddles and some are quite fast some exceeding 15knots. In general things like size, speed, ease of changing course, along with location (e.g. being in clean open water as opposed to narrow channel) are more important in determining which boat is required to give way and the method of power is often a lesser consideration. Not to mention pleasure boats as a rule are required to give way to boats/ships engaged in commerce.

From time to time, I run across people who have been taught something like that. For the life of me, I can't understand what such teaching is based on. Certainly not the COLREGS.

At best it seems to me that what maybe is intended is that whoever can most easily prevent a risk of collision from arising in the first place, ought to do so. That's common sense, excellent seamanship, and can be read into Rule 2.

But once you already have a risk of collision, then the COLREGS require -- and it is not optional -- a particular order of maneuvering, with some vessels required to keep their course and speed so that others can maneuver. And that is determined by the Rules, not which vessel might seem to be "more burdened" or "more maneuverable" or whatever.

This is even true in a Rule 9 situation, where small power vessels and all sailing vessels are obligated to "not impede" vessels operating in narrow channels or fairways. Rule 9 does not indeed trump the Steering & Sailing Rules, which still apply once a risk of collision arises.

What that means is that even a fully loaded supertanker is obligated to maneuver to avoid a small sailboat even in a narrow channel, once a risk of collision arises, to the extent it can.

If it cannot -- for example, you're less than a mile apart, or you are already invisible under his bows, then the last part of Rule 17 comes into effect, and you need to get the heck out of there. And you shouldn't have been in his way in the first place, even in situations where Rule 9 is not applicable.

But all that cannot at all be summed up by saying that the "most burdened vessel has the right of way," and I don't know why it gets taught that way.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But all that cannot at all be summed up by saying that the "most burdened vessel has the right of way," and I don't know why it gets taught that way.

Dockhead - many people think this is the answer, and the reason is that it is a simple answer. Look at all the Colreg threads that have been on CF over time - they go on for pages and pages and discuss even the most basic of the Colregs tenents.
The Colregs are actually not all that difficult - but they do require careful study and a certain amount of time must be used to grasp how the Regs are intended to be interpreted. Many are unwilling to spend that time and therefore come up with the homemade rules


"Commercial boats have the right of way over pleasure craft"
"The rule of gross tonnage"
"I always just point at the back of their boat and go around them that way"

ON this spwcific question (row boats) I have to admit that I had the wrong answer. I also thought that a rowboat would be the stand on vessel over a sailboat.

Just goes to show - live and learn. After having sailed over 10,000nm in the course of the past year - I can say there are many out there that have no working knowledge of the Colregs - or at least don't follow them at all.

Which can be quite annoying - especially if you are sailing in the narrow parts of the ICW in a boat sporting a 7 1/2 foot keel (vessel constrained by its draft - although we don't have the day signals to hoist and therefore cannot rightly claim this status).

Interestingly, whenever we call a barge coming from the opposite direction get a safe passing and tell them we are 7 1/2 feet - they are qujite obliging and give us all the room they can.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Dockhead - many people think this is the answer, and the reason is that it is a simple answer. Look at all the Colreg threads that have been on CF over time - they go on for pages and pages and discuss even the most basic of the Colregs tenents.
The Colregs are actually not all that difficult - but they do require careful study and a certain amount of time must be used to grasp how the Regs are intended to be interpreted. Many are unwilling to spend that time and therefore come up with the homemade rules


"Commercial boats have the right of way over pleasure craft"
"The rule of gross tonnage"
"I always just point at the back of their boat and go around them that way"

ON this spwcific question (row boats) I have to admit that I had the wrong answer. I also thought that a rowboat would be the stand on vessel over a sailboat.

Just goes to show - live and learn. After having sailed over 10,000nm in the course of the past year - I can say there are many out there that have no working knowledge of the Colregs - or at least don't follow them at all.

Which can be quite annoying - especially if you are sailing in the narrow parts of the ICW in a boat sporting a 7 1/2 foot keel (vessel constrained by its draft - although we don't have the day signals to hoist and therefore cannot rightly claim this status).

Interestingly, whenever we call a barge coming from the opposite direction get a safe passing and tell them we are 7 1/2 feet - they are qujite obliging and give us all the room they can.

Sure, but surely it is not all that hard to understand, that successful collision avoidance depends on everyone knowing exactly what he's supposed to do.

If we take this "whoever is most burdened, has the right of way" idea, and apply it, say, to meeting a fast moving passenger ferry in the middle of the English Channel --

Who is "most burdened"? You are motoring at 6 knots, and he is steaming along at 24. You're 5 miles apart, you have 0.00 CPA, and someone needs to do something. Who? And What?

Who is "most burdened"? That's a tough one. Your small boat can change course more quickly, but the fast ferry has 4x greater ability to change the point of crossing. I'd say the slow boat is definitely "more burdened" in the sense that any maneuver it makes will be far less effective.

So does that mean that you should hold your course and speed, and the ferry should maneuver? How do you know that both skippers even have the same idea about who is "most burdened"? How is that supposed to work? What if both think that the other is "less burdened"? How much time will be wasted with both skippers waiting for each other to make a move? Or what if both considers the other to be, on the contrary "more burdened", and both attempt to maneuver at the same time, maybe maneuvering into each other?

Collision avoidance can't work like that. The way it works is that the Rules tell you that, big or small, if you are under power, you give way if you meet another power driven vessel coming at you from starboard, and you hold your course and speed if you meet another power driven vessel coming at you from port. It is crucially important that everyone know clearly what he's supposed to do, so that these maneuvers are coordinated.

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Many are unwilling to spend that time and therefore come up with the homemade rules


"Commercial boats have the right of way over pleasure craft"
"The rule of gross tonnage"
"I always just point at the back of their boat and go around them that way".

Or they're taught that way. Started learning to sail in Annapolis when I was a kid at a five day sailing camp. For first time sailors, all of whole are 6-10, muddling about in dinghies, and having to learn in a short time frame, I don't think anyone is diving into the actual rules. Instead, they're just trying to give the kids some simple rules to remember and make sure the kids stay alive in a busy harbor and afterwards when they are on their own.

It wasn't until I did my first keelboat course at 26 that we got into the COLREGs and had them as an appendix to the textbook that I actually read them.

If that's the extent of how most people learn, you get a lot of those simple rules engrained early.

[tomfl]

I would like to edit my earlier comment so the words "commercial vessel" are changed to "vessel engaged in fishing".

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Which can be quite annoying - especially if you are sailing in the narrow parts of the ICW in a boat sporting a 7 1/2 foot keel (vessel constrained by its draft - although we don't have the day signals to hoist and therefore cannot rightly claim this status).

I don't think you'd be able to use the signal if you had it - the US Inland rules don't recognize "CBD".

[foggysail]

Big boat, little boat. Confrontation? Be real, who is going to consider right and wrong in these situations that could cause somebody to lose their life. Little boat..... GET OUT OF THE WAY!

I run into similar problems every other week driving where jerks on bikes peddling two by two challenge cars along with small trucks. And here in Massachusetts and Rhode Island the States gave bikes the right of way by painting bike lanes one each side of the roads leaving little room for vehicles. This is just ridiculous, a small anything should not be challenging a big anything.........even if the big anything walks.

[sestina]

FWIW the Port of London Authority deems a vessel propelled by oars to be power driven and thus has an obligation to keep clear of one under sail.

Several years ago I used to race dinghies on the tidal Thames at Hammersmith in west London. On one glorious occasion a rowing eight, accompanied with coach's boat managed to implale itself into the transom of a dinghy, more by luck than judgement the bows went in through the transom flap and got stuck. The strong tide swept the boats sideways with the result that the bows of the eight snapped off. No argument was necessary.

For a long time the bow section was kept as a trophy of war above the bar of my sailing club, till our forced amalgamation with a rowing club deemed it to be in poor taste.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Big boat, little boat. Confrontation? Be real, who is going to consider right and wrong in these situations that could cause somebody to lose their life. Little boat..... GET OUT OF THE WAY!. . .

Confrontation? No one is talking about a confrontation

The question is not "right or wrong" -- the question is -- what is the best thing to do, to safely resolve a risk of collision situation. Are you sure that an immediate, panicky, "GET OUT OF THE WAY!" maneuver, is always the best thing to do? Or ever?

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Confrontation? No one is talking about a confrontation

The question is not "right or wrong" -- the question is -- what is the best thing to do, to safely resolve a risk of collision situation. Are you sure that an immediate, panicky, "GET OUT OF THE WAY!" maneuver, is always the best thing to do? Or ever?

The Coast Guard's Navigation Rules (U.S. version of COLREGS) are quite clear. All vessels are required to take actions that avoid collision. Anybody sitting at a helm and resorting to a "who has the right of way" is in essence challenging when he should be thinking of collision avoidance.

And GET OUT OF THE WAY or better, keep out of the way should be first and foremost thoughts rather than consorting to Rule #xyz.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by foggysail

The Coast Guard's Navigation Rules (U.S. version of COLREGS) are quite clear. All vessels are required to take actions that avoid collision. Anybody sitting at a helm and resorting to a "who has the right of way" is in essence challenging when he should be thinking of collision avoidance.

And GET OUT OF THE WAY or better, keep out of the way should be first and foremost thoughts rather than consorting to Rule #xyz.

A pointed example of the confusion between "right of way" (as applied on the road) and "stand on/give way" (as required under the Colregs). No disrespect to foggysail intended.

[KP44]

As I understand the COLREGS, nothing gives way to a rowboat or kayak. I assume it is the same for paddle boards. I think it means these are not part of the traffic pattern, so to speak.

But, just like swimmers, no vessel can run over a rowboat and we must keep watch and avoid endangering life or property. So in a bay full of uneducated kayaks who think they have some sort of "right of way", we do what it takes to get through safely.

[Robin3]

OMG!! Every time I visit a thread like this it is not long before the OMG plus a few expletives explodes from me! There is a big culture difference east or west of the pond in this regard. I''m waiting to see an App that determines which is the bigger boat and automatically tells the smaller to get outa the way, if not actually linked by Bluetooth to the autopilot.!

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Robin3

OMG!! Every time I visit a thread like this it is not long before the OMG plus a few expletives explodes from me! There is a big culture difference east or west of the pond in this regard. I''m waiting to see an App that determines which is the bigger boat and automatically tells the smaller to get outa the way, if not actually linked by Bluetooth to the autopilot.!

Hold on to your oars. Here on this side of the pond, the US Coast Guard demands that ALL vessels do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision. If you have the misfortune to be involved in a collision and found that you did nothing to avoid it because of some mistaken belief that you had the "right of way", be ready to be found equally guilty for causing the collision.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Hold on to your oars. Here on this side of the pond, the US Coast Guard demands that ALL vessels do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision. If you have the misfortune to be involved in a collision and found that you did nothing to avoid it because of some mistaken belief that you had the "right of way", be ready to be found equally guilty for causing the collision.

I give up . . . enough already said & not worth arguing over anymore . . . .