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Old 16-12-2014, 13:42   #61
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Whatever, dude. You are obviously smarter than me and a better captain as well. I'll have to just muddle on doing the best I can. At least I got you fired up.
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Old 16-12-2014, 13:51   #62
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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Whatever, dude. You are obviously smarter than me and a better captain as well. I'll have to just muddle on doing the best I can. At least I got you fired up.
I did not intend any disrespect and apologize if I offended you. You did get me fired up -- this is one of my pet peeves. I get a little carried away sometimes.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:09   #63
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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I did not intend any disrespect and apologize if I offended you. You did get me fired up -- this is one of my pet peeves. I get a little carried away sometimes.
Not at all. You explained, patiently and with respect, I thought, what EVERY boater out there should know. It's an interesting, thought-provoking subject that directly affects the safety of every one of us who share the water. We SHOULD be discussing this, and at this level of detail.

The fact that there's always so much push-back from those who chose not to take the time to learn the rules, frankly, scares me.

Dismissive attitudes like "I'm just going to do what I think is best" or "forget the rules - just use common sense" are almost as dangerous as the "I always have right-of-way" mentality. I'm not sure if that's how it was meant, but that's how the "whatever, dude" comment sounded to me.
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Old 16-12-2014, 14:57   #64
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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Originally Posted by sck5 View Post
I would take action as soon as I saw them. Not only is that the safe thing to do but the sooner you make a turn, the less you need to deviate from your original course. At the most extreme AIS range a 5 degree turn is likely to be enough to do the trick. Why wait?
That must be an interesting practice when 5 or 6 vessels start interacting with each other in multilateral developments and you keep making a series of 5 degree adjustments rather than to just relax and follow the rules.
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Old 16-12-2014, 15:18   #65
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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Not at all. You explained, patiently and with respect, I thought, what EVERY boater out there should know. It's an interesting, thought-provoking subject that directly affects the safety of every one of us who share the water. We SHOULD be discussing this, and at this level of detail.

The fact that there's always so much push-back from those who chose not to take the time to learn the rules, frankly, scares me.

Dismissive attitudes like "I'm just going to do what I think is best" or "forget the rules - just use common sense" are almost as dangerous as the "I always have right-of-way" mentality. I'm not sure if that's how it was meant, but that's how the "whatever, dude" comment sounded to me.
My post #61 goes out to you as well.
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Old 16-12-2014, 15:22   #66
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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That must be an interesting practice when 5 or 6 vessels start interacting with each other in multilateral developments and you keep making a series of 5 degree adjustments rather than to just relax and follow the rules.
5 or 6 vessels start interacting with each other in multilateral developments will be interesting regardless. The rules do not cover this very well. Me, I would just slow or stop and wait for the others to figure it out.

I don't know why I bother, most folks here are not willing to think, only to post.
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Old 16-12-2014, 15:30   #67
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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I don't know why I bother, most folks here are not willing to think, only to post.
LOL.... How else can you rile people up and tip windmills....

Safe sailing.
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Old 16-12-2014, 18:11   #68
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

"Why wait?

Because the rules require it, IF you are at that stage in the encounter (after a risk of collision exists, but before it is evident that the give-way vessel is not taking action).

The rules require it because for safe collision avoidance, both vessels must not be maneuvering at the same time.

One vessel has to "hold still" so that the other vessel can calculate and execute a maneuver."

And you assume the 300 meter long freighter is going to maneuver for a small sailboat? Or even see them? I dont. At least not when, as the OP said, we are both in open water in the middle of the ocean somewhere. Sure, in Chesapeake Bay or somewhere like that everyone is paying attention but out in open water it is best to assume the third mate is playing video games rather than watching out for me.

Sure, if there are 6 different ships you dont want to do anything too early or sudden but that wasnt the situation we were talking about. And perhaps I did overstate it by saying "as soon as I see them" but certainly if the AIS is giving a consistent CPA why wait if there are no complicating factors?
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Old 16-12-2014, 18:38   #69
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

I do believe commercial vessels should have priority over pleasure craft. These boys are working for a living not playing !!
As for the colregs in Asia ... I think they think its a make of toothpaste! Unless they are international vessels. My rule of thumb is stay away! And when in a TSS stay a little outside . I have seen to many people being hard headed and getting into trouble.
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Old 16-12-2014, 19:32   #70
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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And you assume the 300 meter long freighter is going to maneuver for a small sailboat? Or even see them?
They are professionals. A watch officer's career is over if he fails to perceive, and maneuver for, a small sailboat sailed by a WAFI, and fails to prevent an accident. He could even go to prison. So yes, in 95% of cases at least, 300 meter freighters and other commercial ships see you and maneuver for you. Probably near 100% if you are broadcasting AIS. Generally they assume that you are an idiot and will not see him, and not know how to maneuver correctly, so they tend to be extra careful when dealing with "small sailboats".

Why don't you ask one? We have several professional mariners in this Forum, including the captain of a North Sea oil well service vessel.

I don't include fishing vessels in this. They often seem to be run on different principles.
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Old 16-12-2014, 20:09   #71
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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Sure there are "rules" but in the end, the biggest boat wins.
Isn't there some kind of law to that effect?
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Old 16-12-2014, 20:41   #72
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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Isn't there some kind of law to that effect?
I've heard the expression "the law of gross tonnage" but I don't know if it's an actual law or just another name for common sense.
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Old 16-12-2014, 21:47   #73
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

It is an interesting real life case, and the discussion up to somewhere on page three where I got lost in conflicting arguments. I have a question or two, but first let me review, starting with the context:

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I am under sail, midday, 20 miles from land and a 950ft bulk carrier appears with 30 minutes to a CPA of nothing much. I leave it a while to see if it becomes clearer or if he moves. It doesn't and he doesn't. At 15 minutes and 4 miles or so I make a DSC call. No response. …
The situation started developing some 30 minutes to CPA, and presumably 8 miles apart.

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… In my opinion, following the Colregs exactly is the right thing to do.
Keep in mind that the decision point for ships in open water is usually around 10 miles. So if they haven't maneuvered by 7 or 8 miles, then it's a fair bet that they don't see you or for some reason don't intend to maneuver, so you are now allowed by the Colregs to take some kind of action.
Seems that this was the time for the stand-on vessel to take action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Zarley View Post
Apparently some of you feel privileged to hold your course when in a collision course with another vessel. Do you have the same mindset when driving a car? Delaying your response to an eminent collision just because you are in the right (refer to colregs)? …
Myself, like Mark, came to the conclusion/question, why wait any longer?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Here we go again.
At a certain stage in a crossing situation, one vessel is obligated, not privileged, to hold course and speed. It does not increase safety to just change course willy-nilly whenever you see a ship. Suggest you learn the Colregs and read up on collision avoidance procedures.
Referring to the previous post, the 10 mile marker was already passed with no action taken by the give-way vessel.

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Why wait?


You have the right to maneuver yourself in these cases:

1. You are the give-way vessel -- actually, the active vessel -- like the boy in a dance.

2. A risk of collision has not yet arisen (say you are more than 10 miles apart, or CPA is a couple of miles or more).

3. You have been holding your course and speed for a while and observing the ship, there is a dangerous CPA, and it is evident that the ship is not maneuvering. This might be 4 or 5 miles off. (edit: or less than 10 miles ... let's say 7 or 8 ... to be consistent) …
My first question is … why wait? At the point when the OP's situation started developing, 30 minutes and 8 miles apart, it was the perfectly safe time for a stand-on vessel to take Colregs sanctioned action. Correct?

My second question is … if so, what would be wrong with making, then and there, a few degree course change (oh no, to port!?) to pass to stern of the give-way vessel?
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Old 16-12-2014, 22:06   #74
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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My second question is if so, what would be wrong with making, then and there, a few degree course change (oh no, to port!?) to pass to stern of the give-way vessel?
The first thing that would be wrong with it is that small changes are a no-no.

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
I've heard the expression "the law of gross tonnage" but I don't know if it's an actual law or just another name for common sense.
Man, that was too easy. You're Dock-food, buddy.
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Old 16-12-2014, 22:17   #75
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Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

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The first thing that would be wrong with it is that small changes are a no-no.
Small degree change over 8 miles distance is a big change. If not immediately projected by electronics, it would be clearly noticeable within a few minutes.



Let's nor split a hair into four ... 20 degree to port then.
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