Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-12-2014, 14:31   #46
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,950
Images: 6
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There’s no right of way at sea, and that is not what standing on is all about. Standing on gives the other vessel the chance, during a certain part of the crossing, to make the first move.
I really think this is where they majority of recreational boaters get confused. Right of way, while driving a car, is what they know intimately, completely, almost intuitively. And so when they read the COLREGS--in their mind--they equate it to the rules of the road for driving, which they are so familiar with.

Frankly, it's hard NOT to do this. It's the way that humans are wired. It's what makes optical illusions work. It is why we are so much smarter than other animals. We automatically and subconsciously associate new information with information that we have already assimilated. This allows us to assimilate new information much, much more quickly than we otherwise could.

Problem is that when we equate the COLREGS to the driving rules that we know, it is a false association. They don't work the same way. They are not meant to be applied in the same way. It is a kind of an "optical illusion" that happens inside the brain. We need to consciously work at breaking the association, and thinking of the COLREGS differently.
__________________

__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2014, 15:33   #47
Registered User
 
The Way's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: On the boat, currently Tampa Bay, Florida
Boat: Dickerson ketch, 36'
Posts: 176
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sssssailor View Post
I like to make sure too which channel I'm calling on. If you call on 13, say, "m/v whatever, this is Scrimshaw (my boat) channel one-three" or however you want to say it. Most passing arrangements on the ICW are probably on 13 or a local freq. I would try the local freq then work your way up to 16 as a last resort.
Thanks again, Sssssailor,

I've always started with 16, but maybe next time I'll try your advice.

By the way, why is it necessary to say what channel you're on? Seems obvious if they're listening on 13 that you're calling on 13. Or is it to help the other captain who may have more than one radio?

Fair winds,
Jack
__________________

__________________
The Way is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2014, 16:58   #48
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Jack, that's the answer, plus for folks with a scanning radio. I monitor VTS on 12 and 14, as well as 16. It's much easier to hear someone say what channel they are on when they call.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2014, 17:25   #49
Registered User
 
toddedger's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Michigan
Boat: Morgan 27
Posts: 264
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Just a quick tip on radar reflectors. I've found that the soccer ball sized reflector shows up amazingly well when it is allowed to spin in the wind on a halyard. Having experienced this I will never use a fixed reflector no matter what the size.
__________________
toddedger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2014, 17:27   #50
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2011
Location: PDX
Boat: Gulfstar 50
Posts: 895
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Way View Post
Thanks again, Sssssailor,

I've always started with 16, but maybe next time I'll try your advice.

By the way, why is it necessary to say what channel you're on? Seems obvious if they're listening on 13 that you're calling on 13. Or is it to help the other captain who may have more than one radio?

Fair winds,
Jack
I usually have 3 radios on monitoring different channels. If you say which channel you are hailing on I will be able reply on the correct radio.
__________________
evm1024 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2014, 18:26   #51
Registered User
 
The Way's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: On the boat, currently Tampa Bay, Florida
Boat: Dickerson ketch, 36'
Posts: 176
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Thanks, Stu and EVM,

I'll make a habit of giving my calling channel from now on.

Jack
__________________
The Way is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2014, 18:31   #52
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,890
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
.....– it is a big mistake to confuse fulfilling your obligation at a certain stage in a crossing, to stand on, with a driver on the road insisting on his right of way. There’s no right of way at sea, and that is not what standing on is all about. Standing on gives the other vessel the chance, during a certain part of the crossing, to make the first move. If he doesn’t, then you get the right to maneuver yourself.
To add to Dockhead's excellent explanation... If as the stand on vessel you make an early alteration at a large distance (10+mm) to open up a questionable CPA, the other commercial vessel may adjust his course to negate that change based on their own evaluation that a safe CPA already exists.


Follow Dockhead's advice and hold your course until it becomes obvious after a more accurate evaluation.... that the giveway vessel will not give way and the CPA is inside your comfort zone.

Then make a large and obvious course change at about 4nm (avoiding alteration to port unless you are being closed from astern on the starboard quarter)

There is another human component to consider...

Sometimes the commercial watchkeeper is just bored and curious about the opposing yacht and wants to have a closer but still safe look.

I get that all the time running super yachts and just followed the rules as Dockhead explained.
__________________
Pelagic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2014, 20:28   #53
Registered User
 
four winds's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wandering the US Gulf Coast
Boat: 78 Pearson323 Four Winds
Posts: 2,138
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Thanks Dockhead for explaining it one more time. Well done.

And thanks to Pelagic for the added nuances.

And to chuckr for the real world examples for illustration.

Following the COLREGS is always the right choice. As another poster pointed out the unfortunate yet common association to highway driving rules is patently wrong. I feel quite lucky to have understood this from the beginning of my experience four years ago.

I sail the gulf ICW and area bays practically daily with tows, trawlers, sailboats, sportfishers, center consoles, skifs, paddleboarders, sunfish, and more. The COLREGS actually make it simpler to me. There is one Dolphin cruise boat that never seems quite sure which move to make though. He knows when I'm required to stand on, and I'm standing as required. But by the time he jogs to starboard and then to port a couple of times.... instead of a clear apparent maneuver .....I get concerned. Just seconds from me giving up stand on status a couple times.

I should say, just yesterday I screwed up. I failed to stand on. The give way vessel was overtaking. It wasn't close at all because the give way vessel's maneuver was a wide sweeping arc (fast cruiser) to my starboard into the open bay after rounding a point on the ICW. He wasn't there the last time I looked back and I was struggling in light air with just the head sail. Should have looked back again before changing course. We both acknowledged I screwed up.

I'd like to read more accounts of crossing encounters. Offshore or inshore either one. And more discussion of how the two differ in regards to the COLREGS. Do they really?
__________________
Life begins at the waters edge.
four winds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 09:01   #54
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
With apologies to everyone who has heard this lecture before (you can skip over it! ).
I've heard it before so I'm going to skip over it.

I hope everyone can use common sense and be safe when actually on the water, not the keyboard. Know when it's time to give up on being "right" and just be safe.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 10:47   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cayuga Lake NY - or on the boat somewhere south of there
Boat: Caliber 40
Posts: 1,096
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Why would I ever play chicken with a freighter? If anyone gets hurt it will be me and not them. I would take action as soon as I saw them. Not only is that the safe thing to do but the sooner you make a turn, the less you need to deviate from your original course. At the most extreme AIS range a 5 degree turn is likely to be enough to do the trick. Why wait?
__________________
sck5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 11:11   #56
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,744
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by sck5 View Post
Why would I ever play chicken with a freighter? If anyone gets hurt it will be me and not them. I would take action as soon as I saw them. Not only is that the safe thing to do but the sooner you make a turn, the less you need to deviate from your original course. At the most extreme AIS range a 5 degree turn is likely to be enough to do the trick. Why wait?
Why wait?

Because the rules require it, IF you are at that stage in the encounter (after a risk of collision exists, but before it is evident that the give-way vessel is not taking action).

The rules require it because for safe collision avoidance, both vessels must not be maneuvering at the same time.

One vessel has to "hold still" so that the other vessel can calculate and execute a maneuver.

Taking action "as soon as you see them" is bad seamanship for another reason, too -- "as soon as you see them" you cannot have calculated what kind of crossing you have. Most likely, the ship has already maneuvered long ago and is passing safely ahead of you. If you just willy-nilly maneuver as soon as you see the ship without bothering to take bearings and calculate the CPA, you will most likely mess up his work.

You have the right to maneuver yourself in these cases:

1. You are the give-way vessel -- actually, the active vessel -- like the boy in a dance.

2. A risk of collision has not yet arisen (say you are more than 10 miles apart, or CPA is a couple of miles or more).

3. You have been holding your course and speed for a while and observing the ship, there is a dangerous CPA, and it is evident that the ship is not maneuvering. This might be 4 or 5 miles off.


Outside of these cases, if you are the passive vessel -- the give-way vessel -- like the girl in a dance -- then you must hold your course and speed to give the active vessel -- the boy -- the chance to make the first move. You are required by the rules to do it, and it is dangerous not to. Calling it "playing chicken" reveals a deep misunderstanding of how collision avoidance works.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 11:13   #57
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by sck5 View Post
Why would I ever play chicken with a freighter? If anyone gets hurt it will be me and not them. I would take action as soon as I saw them. Not only is that the safe thing to do but the sooner you make a turn, the less you need to deviate from your original course. At the most extreme AIS range a 5 degree turn is likely to be enough to do the trick. Why wait?
Because you are a stubborn A**hole and have something to prove even if it kills you.

The captain of that freighter won't even feel the crunch of your boat as it goes under his hull.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 11:49   #58
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

For anyone familiar with the (USA) Intracoastal Waterway, you have probably made or received a request for a "slow pass" where the first boat slows to near stop so the overtaking boat can pass without throwing the first boat a large wake.

This, of course, is a direct violation of the COLREGS which would require the first boat to maintain course and speed. It is however, the application of common sense to a situation that could be uncomfortable, dangerous or drag on for miles.

Now as to "maintaining course and speed", if you've ever boated in the vicinity of commercial crabbers tending their pots, you know that their course and speed resembles that of a squirrel. Common sense says to do whatever you have to to keep out of their way.

Common sense tells me it is unwise for someone in a 30' boat to challenge the QEII over who should change course or speed to avoid a collision.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 12:33   #59
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,744
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Because you are a stubborn A**hole and have something to prove even if it kills you.

The captain of that freighter won't even feel the crunch of your boat as it goes under his hull.
Something to prove? Playing chicken? Stubborn? The use of these phrases shows a deep misunderstanding of how this works.

Professional mariners and people who understand collision avoidance do not think like this. Just like in a dance -- collision avoidance doesn't work if both vessels maneuver at the same time. They have to do it in order, with someone "holding still" so that the other can do it effectively.

You must give the freighter a chance to make his move, if he's the give way vessel. He does not want for you to be maneuvering spontaneously, contrary to what the rules require you to do. Professional mariners call us "WAFIs" ("Wind Assisted F*****g Idiots") exactly for doing what you recommend.

Being the stand-on vessel doesn't give you anything even vaguely resembling right of way -- you have no right to "play chicken". Being the stand-on vessel is the obligation to hold still for a certain period of time, without which the whole system doesn't work.

As soon as you see that for some reason the freighter has not seen you or has not maneuvered, then you can start maneuvering yourself, but not before. Once a collision can't be avoided by the maneuver of the give-way vessel alone, you must maneuver yourself. Playing chicken is absolutely forbidden by the rules.

This kind of haphazard ("practical") approach to collision avoidance, refusing to follow the procedure, is in my experience always accompanied with a haphazard approach to watchkeeping, and the combination is very dangerous. It is combined with the misunderstanding that ships never maneuver for us, and the inability to distinguish a safe from a dangerous crossing. So this kind of haphazard maneuvering ("just get out of the way as soon as you see him") as often as not creates a dangerous situation where there was no problem to start with, because the freighter already solved it before the pleasure boater was even aware he was there. This is pure WAFI behavior.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2014, 12:58   #60
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,744
Re: Collision course, radio and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
For anyone familiar with the (USA) Intracoastal Waterway, you have probably made or received a request for a "slow pass" where the first boat slows to near stop so the overtaking boat can pass without throwing the first boat a large wake.

This, of course, is a direct violation of the COLREGS which would require the first boat to maintain course and speed. It is however, the application of common sense to a situation that could be uncomfortable, dangerous or drag on for miles.

Now as to "maintaining course and speed", if you've ever boated in the vicinity of commercial crabbers tending their pots, you know that their course and speed resembles that of a squirrel. Common sense says to do whatever you have to to keep out of their way.

Common sense tells me it is unwise for someone in a 30' boat to challenge the QEII over who should change course or speed to avoid a collision.
The Colregs allow ample room for common sense in Rule 2.

It is not a violation at all of the Colregs to specifically agree to make a particular course and/or speed change to make a crossing easier, like in a "slow pass" situation. It is violation to do it unilaterally and spontaneously at a moment when the other vessel may be counting on your carrying on. That's very different.

Who "challenges" a ship over who should change course or speed? Pure WAFI mentality. The bridge of the QEII simply doesn't think that way. Unlike many of us, the guys on that bridge know and follow the rules. It is not a "challenge" to them that you hold your course and speed where the rules require it. On the contrary, they need for you to do it.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
collision, radio

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wanted Raymarina Type 300 Course computer or S3 Course computer Plukky Marine Electronics 0 09-05-2014 00:20
Change Your Course to Avoid Collision Jacknast Off Topic Forum 2 23-03-2012 17:48
RYA SRC Radio Course PMT1 Commercial Posts 0 22-01-2012 12:51
SSB Radio and Amateur Radio RDW Training, Licensing & Certification 20 10-02-2011 12:45
Customs and Immigration Procedures - St. Kitts and Nevis, etc. karenmccraw Atlantic & the Caribbean 4 17-02-2010 22:33



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.