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Old 30-04-2008, 06:06   #46
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Wotname,

Thanks for a very rational and well-stated post. You are a gentleman and a scholar!
[/I]Cheers,
Gosh Hud, I am blushing, what can I say other than "it takes one to know one".

Fear of change is also a factor here and for those of us who are already a bit distrustful of government proposals (and I am in that group), our dire fears can run rampant.

It is good to note you can report positive experiences.

We have had our own problems recently in Queensland with various government bodies (police, fisheries, customs, marine parks etc) becoming gung ho and heavy handed in their approach to boating activities. It would seem that some very bad press highlighting some unbelievable goofs by the said professionals has put things back to "normal".

Over in the west, nothing has changed, the water police / fisheries etc continue to treat us in a friendly and courteous manner unless one steps out of line, then one is treated (usually) in a firm yet courteous manner.

However what happens in the USA is sure to happen here if one goes on past events.
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Old 30-04-2008, 06:08   #47
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A gentleman and a scholar in Perth!?!?!?

Things must have changed since I did my time up in Dampier and Karratha, with a week in Perth/Freemantle on each end.
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Old 30-04-2008, 07:04   #48
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Shhss.... don't tell anyone - our American friends won't know if we don't tell them
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Old 30-04-2008, 07:55   #49
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I would like very much if I could say my encounter was the exception. But, maybe Coast Guard protocol out here is different than other parts of the country. My encounter is not the exception. The problem I see with legislation such as this proposal is the fact that it opens a dangerous door. When the intent is to divide the community be providing encouragement to report others within the community, it makes poor use of the resource that already exists. Marine communities are very close knit. Wouldn't it be more effective to provide a resource to make those communities closer, rather than encourage people to call the 1-800-HOWS-MY-DRIVING numbers? How about spending those same resources exclusively on free Coast Guard training seminars, and other such events, that would draw more people, and bring the communities closer together? Face it, if you know your neighbors, you will be more likely to notice if someone from outside the community shows up, and when you know your neighbors, you are far more likely to pay attention to what is going on in your community.
There is nothing in this proposal that I have seen, that provides anything but division to the marine community. If you intend to utilize an asset, it does not make sense to divide and devalue that asset.
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Old 30-04-2008, 09:51   #50
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....... Marine communities are very close knit. Wouldn't it be more effective to provide a resource to make those communities closer, rather than encourage people to call the 1-800-HOWS-MY-DRIVING numbers? How about spending those same resources exclusively on free Coast Guard training seminars, and other such events, that would draw more people, and bring the communities closer together? Face it, if you know your neighbors, you will be more likely to notice if someone from outside the community shows up, and when you know your neighbors, you are far more likely to pay attention to what is going on in your community. ......
Well said Mr Kai Nui! - my thoughts exactly.
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Old 30-04-2008, 11:18   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui View Post
...When the intent is to divide the community by providing encouragement to report others within the community, it makes poor use of the resource that already exists. Marine communities are very close knit. Wouldn't it be more effective to provide a resource to make those communities closer, rather than encourage people to call the 1-800-HOWS-MY-DRIVING numbers? How about spending those same resources exclusively on free Coast Guard training seminars, and other such events, that would draw more people, and bring the communities closer together? Face it, if you know your neighbors, you will be more likely to notice if someone from outside the community shows up, and when you know your neighbors, you are far more likely to pay attention to what is going on in your community.
There is nothing in this proposal that I have seen, that provides anything but division to the marine community. If you intend to utilize an asset, it does not make sense to divide and devalue that asset.
Kai Nui,

Here's a quote from the DHS proposal:

"Small vessel operators can be effective partners in detecting threats in our ports and on our waterways. The large number of small vessel operators and their familiarity with the local area and patterns of waterway use make it possible that small vessel operators will be the first to recognize suspicious behavior. DHS must promote and strengthen their effectiveness through public dialogue regarding their role in homeland security and specialized programs such as America’s Waterway Watch."

To me, this says nothing about "dividing the community". The DHS is assuming that small vessel operators are familiar enough with their own communities and cruising grounds that they will recognize outsiders who may be up to no good.

And heres more:

"Efforts to enhance security may improve small vessel safety and operator education, thus the security strategy builds on existing safety frameworks."

and

"Small vessel risk reduction efforts will include ongoing engagement with the small vessel community, as well as other key stakeholders in order to ensure that potential solutions reflect their interests and to benefit from the collected wisdom of the small vessel community in crafting solutions."

It doesn't sound like they're going to run rough-shod over the small boating community to me.
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Old 30-04-2008, 11:32   #52
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Australian Response to the Domestic Terrorist Threat

Since so many of the people commenting on the U.S. DHS proposal in this thread are from Australia, I bring this bit of information to your attention. It seems that the Australian government is well ahead of the U.S. in terms of enlisting public support and beefing up the capabilities of their agencies.

From the White Paper, 'Transnational Terrorism: The Threat to Australia', 15 July, 2004.

“Our ability to counter the terrorist threat will be most effective when the people of Australia and their governments - Commonwealth, state and territory - work together. This means all Australians need to understand the nature of the threat and the actions these governments are taking to combat it. The Australian Government will continue to inform, consult and work with the Australian community to ensure a truly united front to this fundamental threat to our national interests.”

Part of the Australian strategy is to strengthen agencies, such as the Australian Federal Police:

"Stronger Agencies
The capacity of the AFP to investigate and prevent terrorist activity in Australia has been upgraded significantly. The AFP has established new Joint Counter-Terrorism Teams with all state and territory police services. These teams work in each capital city to identify and investigate terrorism offences. The AFP has also boosted its investigative, intelligence and protective security capabilities, including enhanced technical, forensic and 'high-tech' crime teams and additional close personal protection teams.
The ADF has formed a second tactical assault group improving its capacity to respond to terrorist incidents on the east coast of Australia."

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Old 30-04-2008, 11:47   #53
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"Small vessel risk reduction efforts will include ongoing engagement with the small vessel community,


Some could read this kind of statement as meaning "We are going to force you to take some of your time to interact with government people you would rather not even have to meet, much less answer to, whether or not you are minding your own business and not causing problems."

Or how about "You now answer to this beaurocracy, in one of the last places anywhere near the US where you could feel free for a few hours".

and as for:
Small vessel operators can be effective partners in detecting threats in our ports and on our waterways.


What if a small vessel operator does not WANT to be a "partner" with the US government? WHat if he considers his precious time on the water, and his boat, as his own?
What happens to the boater who has never been in trouble, no record, but who says "Screw you, I don't want to play your silly games. Especially if it means more regulations in response to a non-existant problem"?

He won't be able to carry on his life as before. He will have additional regulations placed upon him, and there will be enforcement. And this is good, how, again?
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Old 30-04-2008, 11:51   #54
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Canibul,

Your quote of the quote was rather selective! Did you see the part that I've underlined?

"Small vessel risk reduction efforts will include ongoing engagement with the small vessel community, as well as other key stakeholders in order to ensure that potential solutions reflect their interests and to benefit from the collected wisdom of the small vessel community in crafting solutions."

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
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Old 30-04-2008, 12:05   #55
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" I cant believe they pulled me over and treated me in that way..they looked just like soldiers"

I knew we were in trouble when (during the Reagan administration) "police" started wearing "military" style uniforms. When was the last time you saw a policeman dressed in a blue uniform with piping on the pants and a saucer cap? Now they look like commandos.

Fascism (which is about corporatocracy...not just totalitarianism) grows in an insidious way. All I can say is that if you are not OUTRAGED, you are not paying attention!! I am sure that none of the legislation that has curtailed our freedoms over the past several years will read, " In order to divide the community..." Wake up and smell the concrete.

Ben Franklin said, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

I am gratified by the apparent awareness of most of the posters to this thread. Yet, between the Bilderburg Group, NAFTA, CAFTA, Blackwater and "homeland security", I have grave concern about the future of the "free world".

Also note the source of the original video link... Fox News... talk about co-opted press.
Others here have stated the situation more elegantly. Let us hope that a new administration will restore some balance... assuming we actually get to have another free and honest election...how many posters have faith in computer counted votes?
I could rant on but I should watch my blood pressure

On a more humorous note:

Research has led to the discovery of the heaviest element yet known to
> science. The new element, Governmentium (Gv), has one neuron, 25
> assistant neurons, 88 deputy neurons, and 198 assistant deputy neurons,
> giving it an atomic mass of 312.
>
> These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are
> surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons.
> Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert; however, it can be
> detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into
> contact. A minute amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that
> would normally take less than a second to take from four days to four
> years to complete.
>
> Governmentium has a normal half-life of 2-6 years; it does not decay,
> but instead undergoes continuous reorganizations in which a portion of
> the assistant neurons and deputy neurons exchange places. In fact,
> Governmentium's mass will actually increase over time, since each
> reorganization will cause more morons to become neurons, forming
> isodopes. This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists
> to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical
> concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as critical
> morass. When catalyzed with money, Governmentium becomes
> Administratium, an element that radiates just as much energy as
> Governmentium, since it has half as many peons but twice as many
> morons."

cheers,
mm
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Old 30-04-2008, 12:07   #56
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I did see that, and if we were to pick apart the report, or the article, it's individual pieces sound like so much rhetoric. For instance,
Quote:
On Monday officials were to announce the plan, which asks states to develop and enforce safety standards for recreational boaters and asks them to look for and report suspicious behavior on the water — much like a neighborhood watch program. The government will also look to develop technology that will help detect dangerous materials and other potential warning signs.
Now, if you have a neighborhood where the residents have BBQ's together, and everyone knows everyone else, this is great, but if you have a neighborhood full of short term rentals with people unfamiliar with the family next door (read that transient slips, and cruisers passing through), you create an environment where people are encouraged to watch who comes and goes with a suspicious eye. Add to this the easy report numbers, and a government entity encouraging people to report anything they find suspicious, and you have mono hullers reporting Multi's as suspicious activity (I know, that was a jab ) We need to get past this paranoid reaction to world events, and move toward a united front that encourages the boating community as a whole to be involved, and active in the sport of boating. What ever form that might take. Mandatory anything will breed contempt. Marketing projects like navigation training, boater safety training, community interactive events like Coast Guard demonstrations, will do far more to bring the community closer than any other steps that the government could take. These type of interactions will build relationships that will allow people to easily recognize the real bad guys, and, it will make the boating community a far less appealing front for terrorist activity.
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Old 30-04-2008, 12:12   #57
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... I am gratified by the apparent awareness of most of the posters to this thread. Yet, between the Bilderburg Group, NAFTA, CAFTA, Blackwater and "homeland security", I have grave concern about the future of the "free world" ...mm
You are probably aware that the “Free World” does not exist entirely within the borders of the U.S.A.; and that the World Series is not really a world championship et al.
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Old 30-04-2008, 12:13   #58
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Oh yea, another thing... I hope all of you unpatriotic rabble-rousers realize that your email is being monitored and that you will probably end up on some watch list.
Impossible? Maybe not...
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Old 30-04-2008, 12:14   #59
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Gord,
exactly my point!! This is a global issue.
Antarctica is looking better and better...hmm better get that kerosene heater working

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Old 30-04-2008, 12:17   #60
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Now mangomuffins, no need to be mean about it I am perfectly happy with my head in the sand. Besides, the powers that be have far bigger fish to fry than me. In fact, I have a personally signed letter from the Governor expressing his appreciation for my support of his master plan
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