Coast Guard procedures

[30yearslater]

Yes indeed hellosailor. The station license is now US $215.00 and the Restricted Radio Telephone Operator is another $70.00.
My gripe with the dim bulb at NAVCEN on the fees was when the FCC submitted request for comments on the proposed fee increases not once did our illustrious soldier wannabes ever raise a protest as a detriment to safety. I wish I had kept the correspondence from NAVCEN, The FCC and Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand all of whom I blew a stack with regarding fees for a service my tax bucks are already supporting. Speaking of blowing a stack, it was 40 years ago the Cutter Alert hauled our sorry asses back to the James River after we blew the port muffler on the Army ship LTC John U D Page and the ensuing fire burned the engine room and stack to a crisp. Our sea going tug couldn't help due to other commitments so the boys in the CG gave us a tow. Damn fine bunch back then. Hell I even attended the CG firefighting school at Yorktown, Va as part of my boat driver training. So as even you can see what was and is are completely separate issues. Nostalgia for what was a gallant service doesn't reflect the reality of today's CG. Harassing a damn sailboat in extreme conditions on the Great Lakes under the guise of 'safety' is a damn poor reflection on today's CG. Clearly we have those cagey Canadians trying to sneak into the US in droves on sailboats.

[hellosailor]

a64-
Bearing in mind that the NYPD is something like the 20th largest police force in the world, including *national* level forces...
Around 2008? Our harbor patrol made the news because they did intercept some guys on an outboard fishing boat up near HellsGate. They insisted that someone had nuclear materials on board the boat. Ergh, well, it turned out one man was being treated for prostate cancer with radioactive seeding, so yes, they did have radioactive material on board. The big news side was that there were such incredibly sensitive radiation detectors being deployed on the waters.
In NYC the nightmare scenario (and there's at least one public paper by an FDNY officer who was doing a PhD at the Naval Warfare College, IIRC) is that someone sets off a dirty bomb in Manhattan. Among the possible results for a rather "mundane" device, is that the lower half of Manhattan island would have to be closed off and secured for fifty to a hundred years. In comparison, 9/11 would be a tea party.
Considering how porous our waterways have always been, you may appreciate why there's a lot of paranoia about watching the coasts, and an equal amount of absolute fear of what would happen if that became a public topic of discussion.
Imagine if the attack on the USS Cole had been performed on a LNG tanker in Boston harbor. Google the explosion in, what was it, Galveston? from one freighter full of fertilizer, to see what one ship can do.
Will the gung-ho nuts on blacked out boats be able to change that? I don't think so, but that's just one man's opinion.

[a64pilot]

Very unlikely that a dirty bomb or other such terrorist device will be brought in by a US registered sailboat.
More likely by a container ship in a container wouldn’t you think?
Be difficult to think of a worse vessel to launch any kind of terrorist attach from than an average sized sailboat.
Now a cement truck? That could house an enormous bomb and likely be driven close to the White House or other Government building, think any kind of tanker truck as well.
Or heck, how about a train. Of all the possible terror vehicles, I’d think the average sailboat would be a very poor choice.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by 14murs14

I'm calling BS on that one. Let me know the station and the date, I'm giving them a call.

Key west about two months ago. They were all over the boats being used as air bnb. Help yourself.

Oh and I left out another stop by customs asking where we had come from and where we were going, even though we were parked next to their boat in stock island for maybe 6 months and had just left an hour before.

The amount of harassment by law enforcement in key west is untenable.

[john61ct]

I'm sure they don't care, the solution is for the pesky non-essential recreational boaters to go move elsewhere, less work for them

[a64pilot]

I was in KW last year I think it was and talked to one guy that was using his boat as a sort or air bnb. He charged by the night for couples, picked them up by dinghy and was I’m sure cheaper than local Motels. He was bragging on how much money he made.
There was at least one guy that had what looked like an old small Boston Whaler that ran a water taxi service too from the anchorage and that island that a few people live on.

Well, I feel pretty sure that neither was licensed properly, insured or had the necessary safety gear, I’d bet the there were a few complaints, and once complaints are made, there has to be an investigation.
But that is just my guess.

Met another guy who had taken a weed eater and taken the line spool off, bent a prop out of a piece of aluminum and that was his outboard.
Pretty inventive guy. KW is different than a lot of other places, there are all types, not all conform to the norms.

[Ike]

I would echo 14murs14's comment. As a retired Coast Guard Officer (prior enlisted) his comments are right on the mark. Back in 2008 I wrote an article about this for another forum and here it is in pdf format. http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/boardings.pdf I realize it's rather long but I wanted to include all the background.

Also if they incurred damage to your boat, file a claim. Make sure you document it well with photos, a copy of the boarding report, etc, even an estimate from a marine repair facility. It will be paid. Admittedly it may take a while. These things are notoriously slow because of the process. However, just think about how long it takes your insurance company to pay up. Mine took 6 months to pay a $200.00 claim!

Anyway. The link in the pdf to Hamilton's letter does not work but I will find it and post it here.

Back at the station the Boat Coxswain reports to a Chief Petty Officer who you can bet has a long history of boat handling. He (or she these days) will not be pleased if the boat crew screwed up. So do as 14murs14 said. Contact the local CG station and talk to the Commanding Officer or Officer in Charge. We did this routinely when I was at Coast Guard Station San Francisco. Occasionally (not very often thank God!) I was acting CO when he and the XO were away and had to be the one to talk to people who were not happy. I hope they were when they left. If not I am sure I would have heard unkind words from the Group Commander whose office was literally next door. The Coast Guard does not suffer fools lightly.

Found it: https://media.defense.gov/2017/Jul/0...LTONLETTER.PDF

It is rather long but the important part is:

While I recommend in the strongest terms to the respective officers, activity, vigilance and firmness, I feel no less solicitude, that their deportment may be marked with prudence, moderation and good temper. Upon these last qualities, not less that the former, must depend the success, usefulness and consequently continuance of the establishment in which they are included. They cannot be insensible that there are some prepossessions against it, that the charge with which they are intrusted [sic] is a delicate one, and that it is easy by mismanagement, to produce serious and extensive clamour, disgust and odium.

They will always keep in mind that their countrymen are freemen, and, as such, are
impatient of everything that bears the least mark of a domineering spirit. They will, therefore, refrain, with the most guarded circumspection, from whatever has the semblance of haughtiness, rudeness, or insult. If obstacles occur, they will remember that they are under the particular protection of the laws and that they can meet with nothing disagreeable in the execution of their duty which these will not severely reprehend. This reflection, and a regard to the good of the service, will prevent, at all times a spirit of irritation or resentment. They will endeavor to overcome difficulties, if any are experienced, by a cool and temperate perseverance in their duty--by address and moderation, rather than by vehemence or violence.

The former style of conduct will recommend them to the particular approbation of the
President of the United States, while the reverse of it--even a single instance of outrage or
intemperate or improper treatment of any person with whom they have anything to do, in the course of their duty, will meet with his pointed displeasure, and will be attended with
correspondent consequences.

I lost track of the number of times we were reminded that "you have a lot of authority. If you abuse, you lose it."

[zboss]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I was in KW last year I think it was and talked to one guy that was using his boat as a sort or air bnb. He charged by the night for couples, picked them up by dinghy and was I’m sure cheaper than local Motels. He was bragging on how much money he made.
There was at least one guy that had what looked like an old small Boston Whaler that ran a water taxi service too from the anchorage and that island that a few people live on.

Well, I feel pretty sure that neither was licensed properly, insured or had the necessary safety gear, I’d bet the there were a few complaints, and once complaints are made, there has to be an investigation.
But that is just my guess.

Met another guy who had taken a weed eater and taken the line spool off, bent a prop out of a piece of aluminum and that was his outboard.
Pretty inventive guy. KW is different than a lot of other places, there are all types, not all conform to the norms.

They are still doing that, the taxi guy is still there, and the guy with the weed eater is there.

Again, we went years without so much as a look at by any law enforcement and then BOOM, a hot spot. We couldn’t go a week without running into some kind of law enforcement while we were just minding our own business.

The coast guards mission needs to be reeled in... focus solely on commercial vessels, except in cases of search and rescue, and they need to be merged with C&I. The state police and the FWC need to merge and their system of record needs to talk to the system of record for all the local enforcement and vice versa, so normal citizens aren’t getting pulled over by four difference agencies for different reasons.

I’m not deprecating the spirit of the missions of each of the organizations, I am upset at the haphazard and disorganized enforcement by several competing agencies.

As far as the boat airBNB thing.... that is nuts. There is a guy renting a boat that has no running water, a single 12 volt battery, and no head (guests use a bucket) and he rents it out for $100 a night to people that have no boat experience and have no idea what they are in for. He is completely booked.

[john61ct]

And even I think that's a bargain. Good for him.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by john61ct

And even I think that's a bargain. Good for him.

Problem is it’s illegal. Something will happen and then the rest of us will pay.
At least that is my belief anyway.
I don’t mind at all the water taxi guy etc, he is taking boaters that ought to know enough of what they are getting into. And maybe some that live on that island have no other safe way to get to shore. Actually none of it bothers me, but
Renting out boats in an anchorage to people that are non boaters will not go well, it’s a matter of time, something will happen, and they will be the “victims”
Then people like the guy who has been running the taxi service will be stopped, and the rest of us will be looked at with suspicion.

[hellosailor]

a64-
Perhaps you remember "Three Days of the Condor", book and movie from when Robert Redford was still young? Or some years later, Tom Clancy having terrorists crash a 747 into the Capital Building during the State of the Union address, when the whole hierarchy is in one place? Somewhere along the way, someone did figure out that's a bad idea, and IIRC the VP is no longer allowed to be anywhere near the event.
But, still...how unlikely was the plot of 9/11? And the cluster***k of events that day, almost as good a head-shaker as Pearl Harbor. (Required reading: The 600? page long abbreviated version of "At Dawn We Slept".)
So, yeah, a sailboat is an unlikely delivery vehicle. Cargo cubes of granite slabs routinely set off radiation detectors. Big leaded-glass CRT tv's have finally gone away. But somewhere out there (underwear bombs? shoe soles?) it is still very much "Pinky and The Brain" and that has some folks very concerned. Just tonight 60 minutes was saying CBP seizes 100 tractor trailers filled with illegals every year--well inside the border. And we've both heard of sailboats being seized and used to haul drugs back from the islands into the states. So, unlikely? Yeah. Ask any military historian what happens when your entire defensive strategy is to stay put and rely on fortifications. Um. There don't appear to be any written records of that ever having worked "forever".
So, there's a logic to "search everything". And then there's that pesky fourth amendment...awkwardly designed to protect actors who might be planning to throw down the state. So bear in mind, the boarding party is at best bound by confusion, fear, and uncertainty. Be nice, and when you are hailed, respond "Do you require assistance?" and if they say no, invite their officers over for a cuppa tea. They don't see that kind of welcome often enough.(G)

[a64pilot]

I have never been boarded and or searched.
I have just been detained, once for a couple of hours right at the bridge at Clearwater. I’d suppose they didn’t board, cause they didn’t have the right to, but I guess they can detain me for a few hours with no statement as to why, would have never happened by a police officer on land, why should it on the water?
To make it worse they don’t even have AIS and have never heard of MarineTraffic where you can see the track of an AIS equipped vessel for days.
Both of these tools are readily available to anyone, yet our CBP have never heard of them, and don’t use them or know how?

I’m not saying we don’t need protecting, I guess I’m saying that the Keystone cops aren’t likely to do much good. Ref shoe bomb, and underwear bomb and binary explosives on an airliner.
How many of those were found in the strip search we all go through before boarding?
I’ll tell you, none. They were all found by pure luck when the untrained idiot who had them, couldn’t successfully deploy them.
There are other, undetectable ways. Watch the movie Lucy for one.
Maybe a change in tactics is in order, find something that works?

If the USCG ever boards me, they will be welcomed aboard and I’ll do everything I can to ensure none of them gets hurt too. I’m retired military, I understand. However I don’t think the local Sheriff ought to try to interdict me in International waters, although I have had that happen. I really felt like telling him to go away, I really did, but in truth I’m not that stupid and I’m too nice to do that, he is only following orders from superiors. However I do wonder who in the world told the Sheriff of Martin Co Fl that he had jurisdiction to stop and question boats in International waters. I asked him but was much more polite than directly asking. His response was they work closely with the CBP.

[hellosailor]

Actually, if you remember five? years ago when some Pakistani ? woman was hustled off from an airport after her water bottle tested positive for explosives....About two days later one or two newspapers carried the follow-up report, that the FBI labs could only find traces of water in her water bottle. Somehow, despite the airport closure and BIG NEWS, no one else mentioned there was no there there.

And that's why nothing will be changed. If you read the National Incident Management System (NIMS) the master plan for all such things...psychological operations (psyops) are a key element of everything. Psyops are why the media were allowed to placate the masses, pretending they could help by collecting donations for the workers at ground zero every day. (Pretending, because everything that was "needed" was available in mass quantity within ten miles...uh, yes, NYC has toothbrushes, flashlights, and pajamas.)
Psyops are why we have high profile dog and pony shows performed by the TSA every day. Psyops are, sadly, a very necessary way to prevent mass panic when the masses have neither the intelligence nor the education to address the real issues. Wasn't it Franklin who said something like "Madam, the people will get the government they deserve." Perhaps with a straight face?
So, we have boardings. Perhaps if we had random safety searches in homes (another one blew up from squatters playing with the gas heater this week) the public would sleep better at night?

[a64pilot]

I guess this is where we will disagree, I think a lot of them are Keystone cops, I don’t think there is this big Psyop Plan that is being followed. Just the name Homeland Security has me nervous, sounds too much like the Fatherland.
Myself, I wouldn’t sleep better if my house was randomly searched for safety gear.

Drug activity is apparently highest in public housing, based on arrest records. So why are there not unannounced drug searches in people’s houses carried on there, that is where the drugs are?

Actually I don’t have a house anymore, and I don’t think random safety gear searches for my domicile now is warrantied.
What is the accident rate for near inshore sinkings with fatalities for cruising sailing boats anyway? I’d bet awfully low, lower probably than for fatal crashes of automobiles, yet we don’t even have mandated yearly safety inspections for them anymore, and no safety gear inspections of any kind? Why aren’t fire extinguishers, warning triangles, first aid kits required?

Why do you think local cops don’t knock on doors and force their way in and want to see the toilet is in working order and whether you have the required fire extinguisher and smoke detector, fire escape plan and ladder if it’s a second floor etc, etc?

I’ll tell you why, there would be an outrage and every imaginable group in the world would be up in arms, can you imagine trying that in a public housing area?

So why does it being a boat, make it different? I don’t think you can show me the statistics that indicate these inspections are warrantied, or that their occurrence increases safety in any way.

[a64pilot]

OK let’s look at a purely fantasy scenario.
You come home from work, You, the Wife and Kids are sitting down and eating supper and there is a knock on the door.
You get up and answer it, there is a cop wearing military gear who has his hand on his weapon standing there, you look behind him and another cop is in a truck with a 50 cal mounted and is manning it, in fact he has it pointed at You.
Your asked to step outside on the porch while a third cop goes inside to search, your wife and kids are sent outside on the porch with you. They separate you and your wife and start asking questions. Where were you today? Work you say, where do you work? What is the address? How long were you at work? Which route did you take from work to come here? How long did it take you? How long have you worked there, let me see your registration papers.
They are swabbing the kids to test for drugs. There is no warrant and no probable cause, you have done nothing you don’t do every day.
Meanwhile your wife has been being asked the same questions to see if she will give the same answers. Oh, I forgot the cop that is inside before he went in asked if you have any weapons in the house and then sort of snidely tells you you had better tell the truth cause if there are any, they will find them.

Does this sound familiar?

Before you dismiss me as some kind of liberal hippie, I’ll remind you that I spent 20 years and 6 months in Military service, I’m no left wing hippie. I’m no right wing Nazi either, however I do think that the citizens of the United States have given up too many rights in the interest of “Homeland Security” it needs to stop, I’m innocent until proven guilty, and my home is my castle, even if it floats.
We should politely, and legally raise this concern and get it fixed.
I’m not a second class citizen and have less rights just cause I no longer live on land.

My opinion only of course.