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Old 09-12-2013, 10:08   #121
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

Much better approach tomfl, always go to the head hog, I always say.
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Old 09-12-2013, 10:08   #122
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

Has anyone had any conversation with FWC? It would be nice to at least hear their reasoning. I did post a complaint on their website, but was just curious what they have said to anyone on site.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:39   #123
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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Originally Posted by keyspc View Post
Well said and the clue that the OP apparently does not have.

You're right, if German Jews had just been polite, things would have been different!

Here's a couple of clues for you;

The land of the "free" has more laws and regulations than all current governments on earth combined, as well as all governments in recorded history combined,

The land of the "free" has 4% of the world's population, and holds 25% of it's prisoners, and,

The carrot of Federal funding has been taken in exchange for the militarization of even the smallest local LEA's. i.e., they look and act far more like the SS than Andy Griffith. A paramilitary occupation force would be impossible to differentiate from most of our LEA's.

All of this being fact, one is left with the choice of believing that Americans are the most dangerous, criminally inclined people on earth, or that something is terribly wrong here.

When people believe the slogans more than the obvious facts, they call it "brainwashing". Guess I should be sentenced to a few hours of flag waving, sing some patriotic songs, and lick their jack-boots while thanking them for keeping me safe.

Instead of acting like Public Servants, The FWC views boaters and especially cruisers as the "enemy" in a militaristic "us vs. them" mentality. To quote Eric Carttman, "respect my authoritiiie!.

The Condo owners want cruisers gone, and we shall be made "free" to leave. The wording of the questionnaire regarding the Pilot Mooring Program makes this obvious to anyone who bothers to respond. Each question is begged to a degree that is laughable.

Don't bother with the other slogans, like, "it aint perfect but it's the best there is", because people who have actually been elsewhere know better. The implication that there are worse places is irrelevant, kinda like saying it's ok to torture me a little, cause other places might torture me more, asinine.

To imply that being polite in the face of coordinated harassment is a solution is naive at best, and has been the foundation of all tyranny. Just ask Pastor Neimoller.


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Old 09-12-2013, 13:31   #124
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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Originally Posted by Custom30 View Post
........................
To imply that being polite in the face of coordinated harassment is a solution is naive at best,..........................
It's clear that you disapprove of polite communication with authorities and their overseeing officials, but you have failed to suggest how you would better approach the problem. There is little risk in pointing out the negatives. Share your advise as to the solution.
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Old 09-12-2013, 14:04   #125
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

It appears that some things never change.
I lived aboard in Boot Key Harbor for some years in the 80s and 90s. The FWC personnel (then known as the Florida Marine Patrol) were almost universally obnoxious.
There is a term in the law enforcement world - badge heavy. The meaning should be obvious, an officer who is overly impressed with his own authority. My friends and I came to the conclusion that whenever the FWC made a bad hire, they transferred them to Monroe County to keep all their rotten apples in one basket. I've cruised and lived aboard in Florida in locations ranging from Fernandina Beach to Tarpon Springs. It is only in Monroe county that I have seen such rude, authoritarian officers.
These officers were known to complain about being given no respect. The most amazing thing to me was that they did not monitor channel 16 vhf. Need help? Don't radio the Florida Marine Patrol. That makes as much sense as the Sheriff's office having an unlisted number. This policy made the Florida Marine Patrol into nothing more than a revenue collection machine, since they weren't of any help to the boating public.
I haven't stopped in Marathon for years, and don't see much reason to change that.
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Old 09-12-2013, 14:11   #126
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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Not to disparage civil rights lawyers but I would not approach this as a civil rights issue. FWC is an agency in the state of Florida so I would be looking for an administrative law attorney who not only knows administrative law but also has connections with the government in Tallahassee.

As I posted earlier the State of Florida spends significant dollars to attract folks to the state and there are posts in this thread that support the claim that the FWC actions at the City Marina have discouraged some folks from visiting Florida.

Instead of fighting FWC directly it may be more productive to get agencies in the Florida state government involved and bring pressure on FWC from those agencies and Gov. Scott. The local Marathon government has an interest in not losing City Marina customers and would probably be the best way to bring pressure quickly. If the City of Marathon does not have a staff attorney they wish to use I would suggest these guys as they have lots of experience in administrative law and are well connected in Tallahassee.

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Excellent post, tomfl.

In our experience of overzealousnesses, in Mexico and Australia, the former responded quite well to an approach to the Tourist Bureau, and the latter, also with excellent results, to the immediate supervisor. A reasonable and reasoned approach can, therefore yield good results.

*

To custom 30, I'd suggest that if the Jews had met the Nazi SS with violence, they'd have been slain earlier. Escalation seems to do that.

If I understand my history correctly, before Kristallnacht (sp?) many Jews misread the situation; and afterwards, getting out of Germany became difficult very fast.

*

It seems to me that Thinline's approach -- at least so far -- is reasonable and may be effective. I appreciate that he is willing to stand up and be counted, because too many are intimidated by weapon-bearing police in whatever form.

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Old 09-12-2013, 14:17   #127
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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It's clear that you disapprove of polite communication with authorities and their overseeing officials, but you have failed to suggest how you would better approach the problem. There is little risk in pointing out the negatives. Share your advise as to the solution.
I am always polite when dealing with authority figures.

They are rarely polite in these same interactions.

I simply pointed out that the belief that politeness will deter harassment is naive.

My apologies for the realism, but BoatUS is the most powerful political force on our side, and they have been impotent in this situation. Fairness and right no longer rule, money and political clout certainly do. The condo associations and real estate associations pushing the anchoring regulations have plenty of money to spend on lobbying and political contributions. For the most part, humble cruisers do not.

We are soon to be classified with the homeless, and moved along at every opportunity in Florida.

Anchorages have been displaced by mooring fields. When anchoring becomes impossible or impractical, marina costs will skyrocket, relieving cruisers like me of the lifestyle.

I covered the "land of the free" part, and when I hear Americans recommending that we kow-tow to illegal authority, I hear the spinning of my forefathers in their graves. Had they taken such an attitude, this discussion would not be taking place. That kind of takes care of the "home of the brave" part too.

BTW, the solution is to string up the crooked, wholly owned, professional politicians, regardless of their party, level, or jurisdiction, and replace them with some that at least appear to be of the People, and For the People. These actual representatives would rescind the plethora of unconstitutional laws, and again this discussion would not be taking place.
My scenario, which depends on the unlikelihood that 21st Century Americans would develop the spine of their forefathers, is still less of a longshot than niceness winning out over organized, intentional, harassment.



What kind of poacher are they trying to catch? Does this look like a life jacket checker to anyone? I know intimidation tactics when I see them.

Yeah, you'd better be nice, or else. That's what freedom means in truespeak!

Ann, I 100% agree that violence was not a solution in Germany, I was stating that being super nice also would have been totally ineffective.

'
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Old 09-12-2013, 14:27   #128
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

I wonder how they would react if you brought out a video camera and started recording them every night going through the harbor. Might deter them but could blow up in your face too.
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Old 09-12-2013, 15:00   #129
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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I wonder how they would react if you brought out a video camera and started recording them every night going through the harbor. Might deter them but could blow up in your face too.
Simple. Everyone run those fisheye GoPros half way up the mast at sunset facing the cockpit. It will catch everything for the next 4 boats around you. Or all the way and catch a lot of anchorage. Or use it under the bimini facing the cockpit and the side your dinghy is not blocking.

And for the legal aspects put a note near your safety sticker or where it would be stating "video and audio recording in progress" just like on the public bus. No ifs ands or buts when retailing the story. Just remember you are being recorded also.

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Old 09-12-2013, 15:02   #130
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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.................... the solution is to string up the crooked, wholly owned, professional politicians, regardless of their party, level, or jurisdiction, and replace them with some that at least appear to be of the People, and For the People. ................
I appreciate your stand, but I was in hopes of hearing your actual strategy. "Stringing up" the politicians seems vague. I truly doubt that you propose that concernd boaters grab politians and hang them. You might not have a real strategy or propsal and that's not unusual for those that are frustrated by the system. I'm not opposed to your stand, but I did want to hear of an actual plan. I'm still favoring the polite and reasoned complaint to mutiple authorities and documentation of harassment events.
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Old 09-12-2013, 15:39   #131
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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I appreciate your stand, but I was in hopes of hearing your actual strategy. "Stringing up" the politicians seems vague. I truly doubt that you propose that concernd boaters grab politians and hang them. You might not have a real strategy or propsal and that's not unusual for those that are frustrated by the system. I'm not opposed to your stand, but I did want to hear of an actual plan. I'm still favoring the polite and reasoned complaint to mutiple authorities and documentation of harassment events.
Multiple authorities will determine that this behavior is "within Department Policy", it being already clear that the policy is organized harassment.

One realistic option would be for cruisers to stick together in Monroe County whenever possible. A video camera is easily "confiscated" and has been deemed in several jurisdictions to be "interfering with the performance of duties" and even "endangering an officer". I would use a cheap camera.

If cruisers temporarily try to travel in groups, get on deck anytime the FWC is in the anchorage to look out for their neighbors, live and in person, and showed a presence, the harasser can be deterred by the attention and the sheer numbers. If all eyes and many cameras are upon them, they might see YouTube as a deterrent, lest some Politician throw them under the bus when the video goes cruiser viral. Light up the VHF, like barking dogs when intruders approach.

There, a real plan. Just like cruisers organized in the face of evil in St. Vincent recently, this evil can be combated the same way.

So far, the strength in numbers were the kind with $ before them. Strength in physical numbers can make a bullying harassment policy difficult to prosecute.

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Old 09-12-2013, 16:03   #132
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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The land of the "free" has 4% of the world's population, and holds 25% of it's prisoners, and,
You might consider that our high incarceration rate is one of the reasons the violent crime rate in Europe is twice that of the USA.
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Old 09-12-2013, 16:42   #133
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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......................... If cruisers temporarily try to travel in groups, get on deck anytime the FWC is in the anchorage to look out for their neighbors, live and in person, and showed a presence, the harasser can be deterred by the attention and the sheer numbers. If all eyes and many cameras are upon them, they might see YouTube as a deterrent, lest some Politician throw them under the bus when the video goes cruiser viral. Light up the VHF, like barking dogs when intruders approach.

There, a real plan. ......................
'
Great, you are in absolute agreement that the best plan is to document the harrasment and present this evidence of the wrong behavior. You have added a unified effort of many cruisers to the plan and I agree that that would be helpful. I'm pleased to see that, in the final analysis, we are in total agreement!
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Old 09-12-2013, 16:44   #134
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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You might consider that our high incarceration rate is one of the reasons the violent crime rate in Europe is twice that of the USA.

Ya but... here in the good ole land of the free and home of the not so brave anymore, we have for profit prisons and an entire justice system rigged against the common man. Kinda makes that inflated incarceration rate a mute point. I too have seen too much heavy handed LEOs over the last few years. We seem to forget they are supposed to work for us. Remember they took an oath to protect the constitution and serve and protect us, not harass us.
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Old 09-12-2013, 16:54   #135
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Re: Civil Rights Attorney Needed Marathon FL

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You might consider that our high incarceration rate is one of the reasons the violent crime rate in Europe is twice that of the USA.
Hate to burst your bubble but:

WORLD TOP 10:
Countries with highest reported crime rates:
(According to Total persons brought into formal contact with the police and/or criminal justice system, all crimes)
RANK COUNTRY Count: (2011)
1 United States of America 12,408,899
2 Germany 2,112,843
3 France 1,172,547
4 Russian Federation 1,041,340
5 Italy 900,870
6 Canada 628,920
7 Chile 611,322
8 Poland 521,942
9 Spain 377,965
10 Netherlands 372,305

Definition: "Formal Contact" with the police and/or criminal justice system may include persons suspected, or arrested or cautioned.
SOURCE: UNITED NATIONS OFFICE ON DRUGS & CRIME
The crime-rates map shows the world top ten countries with the highest reported crime rate.This map tells us about the number of crimes that took place per 100,000 people.

Data indicated on the map of countries with the highest reported crime rates is based on house hold surveys, hospital and insurance records, FIR recorded by police or by law enforcement agencies.

Map of countries with the highest reported crime rates clearly indicates that countries of Europe and America are the least safe countries in the world. Asia even though not that economically sound is far safer as compared to the ten countries listed on this map United States with 11,877,218 is the most unsafe country in this list while India, with 1,764,630 is the safest.


Countries With Highest Reported Crime Rates - World Top Ten
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