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Old 14-01-2018, 19:54   #1
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Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

A long-term lurker here, but this is my first post. I've learned so much from you all - thank you. Even when there are conflicting opinions, these discussions helped steer me in directions to find out the details from other sources.

If anything, though, I really wish you guys would get into the habit of distinguishing between resident and citizen. In quite a few post I've read on here, it makes a big difference.

I, myself, for example am a citizen of Australia, but not a resident (not since early childhood), I'm also a citizen of a European country, but not a resident, and to make things worse, I'm a long-term (decades) permanent resident of the US, but not a citizen. My spouse is a citizen of a different European country and also a resident of the US. Our child (still a minor) has all 4 passports. The obvious reason for giving you these details has to do with our intentions of buying a boat and the complications of registration and documentation.

We'd like to buy it here in the US with a mortgage, use it for almost full-time chartering (just local day-trips, and to gain skippering experience, as well as to cover some of the costs), and after a few years when it's mostly or entirely paid off, convert it to personal use and take it to Europe for a year or two. After that, either sell it, or bring it back to the US. For the chartering business, we can set up an LLC so we also get the tax advantage of the purchase and expenses, and also for liability reasons.

Several of you have pointed out you need to be a us citizen to document a vessel in the us, but this page on the us coast guard website seems to suggest otherwise, that since September 2017, some changes have been made. Am I interpreting this correctly?

But if we put our kid (the US citizen, who by the way is the most skillful sailor of all 3 of us) as the majority owner, I'm concerned about the details around both the mortgage and taxes which really need to be in our names.

National Vessel Documentation Center


https://content.govdelivery.com/atta..._FR_170920.pdf

September 2017

"
Due to the recodification of Title 46, several 46 CFR part 67 regulations currently contain inaccurate statutory citations. A crosswalk between pre-codified and codified provisions of Title 46 is available in the disposition tables in 46 U.S.C.2
The changes made by this rule also reflect the elimination of citizenship requirements for mortgagees by Public
Law 104324, section 1113 (1996). Since the issuance of Public Law 104 324, the National Vessel Documentation Center (NVDC) has allowed vessel owners to mortgage their vessels to non- citizens, and it has not restricted the eligibility of a vessel mortgaged to a non-citizen to earn registry or coastwise endorsements, even though 33 CFR 67.17(c) and 67.19(d)(3) continue to explicitly state these restrictions. Therefore, amending these sections will align regulatory text with the current and longstanding 20-year practice of the NVDC, consistent with the statutory requirements, and these changes will result in no impact on industry.
"
Am I completely misreading this? Do you have any advice for me?

Thank you.
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Old 14-01-2018, 20:15   #2
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

If I'm reading that correctly, all it is saying is that a non - US citizen can loan the money for a US citizen's boat.
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Old 14-01-2018, 21:17   #3
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogulskibum View Post
If I'm reading that correctly, all it is saying is that a non - US citizen can loan the money for a US citizen's boat.
I read it the same way.

OP
Do you plan to put the boat into a charter agreement at an existing charter company or are you planning to do captained charters yourself?
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Old 15-01-2018, 00:16   #4
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

Me three.
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Old 15-01-2018, 02:25   #5
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Chachacha.
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Old 15-01-2018, 03:13   #6
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

I'm reading this as you want to run a day charter business with you acting as the captain. You do realize, you need a USCG captains license to do this.

The bank won't let you take out the loan and your son be the owner, so he will have to be on the loan. How old is your son? I'm betting the bank is going to question if he gets put on the loan papers and is only 12. If he's an adult, make it very clear to him that if you mess up, he's on the hook for the loan. This is basically a reverse version of a parent co-signing on a loan and co-signed loans go bad very often. While I'm sure your intentions are good, make sure he knows what he's signing and what the risks are.

Probably a simpler solution is to state register the boat and when you get ready to go overseas, register it under one of your passport citizenships.

Reading the writeup...is a very convoluted paragraph but appears to indicate you can get a loan from a non-US bank.
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Old 15-01-2018, 05:56   #7
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

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I'm reading this as you want to run a day charter business with you acting as the captain. You do realize, you need a USCG captains license to do this.
The only US license available to non US Citizens is the OUPV.
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Old 15-01-2018, 06:01   #8
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

Operator Uninspected Passenger Vessel License

You must meet all of the prerequisites in this paragraph to receive an OUPV- Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels License

Must be 18 years old

Must be able to document 360 days of experience on a vessel

Must have 90 of these days within the last 3 years

90 of the 360 days must be on the ocean or near coastal waters, or the license will be limited to inland waters only

License will be limited to uninspected vessels of less than 100 gross tons
If you are not a U.S. Citizen, you can receive this license BUT your tonnage will be limited to Vessels of 5 Net Tons or less. You must be legal to work in the United States to obtain any U.S. Coast Guard credential.
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Old 15-01-2018, 06:04   #9
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

Are You Qualified To Be a Licensed Captain? - Western Outdoor Times
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Old 15-01-2018, 06:04   #10
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

I had a six pack licence. Was not a citizen.
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Old 15-01-2018, 06:47   #11
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

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License will be limited to uninspected vessels of less than 100 gross tons
If you are not a U.S. Citizen, you can receive this license BUT your tonnage will be limited to Vessels of 5 Net Tons or less. You must be legal to work in the United States to obtain any U.S. Coast Guard credential.
My point was, he was asking questions that lead me to suspected he was unaware of the licensing rules completely.

Of course if he's limited to 5 tons as a non-citizen, that really narrows down the available boats. A fairly modest 35' boat can run north of 10 tons (not displacement but a measurement of dimensions).

Also he needs to check for any visa limitations. If his visa is for a specific job category, would he qualify as "legal to work" in relation to the charter business. If he has permanent residency, probably not an issue but should be checked before jumping in.

This is all before even considering other complications that make chartering a lot less enticing then it sounds at first glance:
- Does the marina allow it and/or charge extra?
- How much extra is commercial insurance?
- If he takes a loan, will the bank allow chartering?
- Where is he located and is it a tourist destination/what is his marketing plan?
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Old 15-01-2018, 10:40   #12
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

That you for your replies!

So that's, what that paragraph means..!

So, what does a green card holder do if he wants to occasionally sail out of us waters, but keep the boat primarily in the US? What happens when a state registered boat sails around, say the Mediterranean? Is it possible?

Documentation is permanent, right? Meaning, once a boat has been documented, future owners must also have it documented. So, if I as a green card holder buy a used boat, it cannot be one that has already been documented, correct?

Re captain's license for chartering, I actually did not have that in mind, just short bareboat chartering managed by the charter management division at my local marina. But clients could request a skipper. Still, I believe it falls under recreational use.
I intend to get whatever certifications I can for my own use. But since you brought up six-pack license for non-citizens, I looked into it, following the link you provided.

"U.S. citizenship is not required for undocumented 6-Pack vessels of less than 5 gross tons." But also, I see, you can only document vessels above 5 net tons. Gee, this is confusing. Is empty displacement the same as gross tonnage? A boat with 4800kg empty displacement, is that under the 5 gross tons?
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Old 15-01-2018, 11:02   #13
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chachacha View Post
That you for your replies!

So that's, what that paragraph means..!

So, what does a green card holder do if he wants to occasionally sail out of us waters, but keep the boat primarily in the US? What happens when a state registered boat sails around, say the Mediterranean? Is it possible?
State registration or under you country of citizenship.
If you are going for multiple years, you could switch about the time you go to the Med. You can actually go international with a state registration just might have to do some more explaining to officials.


Documentation is permanent, right? Meaning, once a boat has been documented, future owners must also have it documented. So, if I as a green card holder buy a used boat, it cannot be one that has already been documented, correct?
No you can remove a boat from USCG Registration.

Re captain's license for chartering, I actually did not have that in mind, just short bareboat chartering managed by the charter management division at my local marina. But clients could request a skipper. Still, I believe it falls under recreational use.
Do they actually rent out large cruising boats for day sails?
Most operations like this are small fishing boats. Not a chance I would hand over my boat to random day sailors.


I intend to get whatever certifications I can for my own use. But since you brought up six-pack license for non-citizens, I looked into it, following the link you provided.
If you aren't doing it to be a charter captain, don't waste your time on a six-pack. Take other training more suited to what you want to learn. The USA has no certifications required for private pleasure craft usage (some states have modest requirements).

"U.S. citizenship is not required for undocumented 6-Pack vessels of less than 5 gross tons." But also, I see, you can only document vessels above 5 net tons. Gee, this is confusing. Is empty displacement the same as gross tonnage? A boat with 4800kg empty displacement, is that under the 5 gross tons?
Gross tonnage in this case has nothing to do with displacement. It's an archaic measurement supposedly related to the cargo carrying capacity but not really true for cruising boats in the modern world but it's what they use.

For reference, our 34' Gemini catamran that weighed around 10,000lbs (ie: 5 ton), I believe was rated at 13 tons on the documentation.
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Old 15-01-2018, 12:10   #14
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

Chachacha:

Wow, what an interesting, complicated problem! Please let us know how this actually works out. If you are a permanent resident, legislation applying to you will differ from that towards a temporary resident. Either way, I'm pretty sure you can borrow money to buy the vessel and place it with a charter company and use it occasionally.

I have no personal knowledge of you doing your own charter company and chartering out your boat, if that's what you're really on about, so will not comment.

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Old 15-01-2018, 12:20   #15
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Re: Citizenship and documentation. Recent changes.

Gross tonnage is a measurement of volume (100cubic ft/tonne) of the vessel. Net Tonnage is that volume less exceptions for contra (contra being engine spaces, steering gear spaces, galley, heads etc.
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