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Old 19-01-2012, 15:21   #46
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

Opinion masquerading as fact?

Well, try tying your arms to your sides for a moment and explain to me how many two stroke outboards you can choose from in the USA today?

As for the oil in my new four stroke Suzuki, when it's time to change it, I am going to dump it on the ground. My alternative is to dump it in the ocean.

And for the next ten oil changes in it, I am going to dump all of that oil on the ground, too. And probably for the next 20, if I keep it that long.

Thats 20 to 30 gallons of used motor oil that will end up dumped on the ground from this single four stroke. Then I'll sell or trade it to someone else, and he'll dump his oil on the ground too.

Gosh, sure seems to make it worth it to have a heavier, more expensive motor.

I doubt I dumped a half of a cup full of two stroke oil on the ground, ever.
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Old 19-01-2012, 15:26   #47
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
Opinion masquerading as fact?

Well, try tying your arms to your sides for a moment and explain to me how many two stroke outboards you can choose from in the USA today?

A
None at all, and my point is that is because they can't easily be made to meet modern emissions standards, while 4 strokes can so be made.

The claim was that 2 strokes are cleaner than 4 strokes, and have been unjustifiably banned. I said that this was rubbish.

Your argument is that the US should not have tighter emissions standards because the Turks and Caicos Islands don't have oil recycling. I'm not going to bother to say that it's rubbish too as I think it's obvious.
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Old 19-01-2012, 15:27   #48
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
Opinion masquerading as fact?

Well, try tying your arms to your sides for a moment and explain to me how many two stroke outboards you can choose from in the USA today?

As for the oil in my new four stroke Suzuki, when it's time to change it, I am going to dump it on the ground. My alternative is to dump it in the ocean.

And for the next ten oil changes in it, I am going to dump all of that oil on the ground, too. And probably for the next 20, if I keep it that long.

Thats 20 to 30 gallons of used motor oil that will end up dumped on the ground from this single four stroke. Then I'll sell or trade it to someone else, and he'll dump his oil on the ground too.

Gosh, sure seems to make it worth it to have a heavier, more expensive motor.

I doubt I dumped a half of a cup full of two stroke oil on the ground, ever.
And you doing that does not equal hundreds of thousands of people in the US. The fact that you don't have recycling, is not really relevant to buying an engine in California.
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Old 19-01-2012, 15:33   #49
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Which then goes back to 'well it's too hard' or 'well why should we do it if they aren't'

Both of which are pretty lame excuses IMO. Just because Other countries detonate nuclear weapons above ground, doesn't make it OK for us to do it. Just because we used to do it, doesn't make it ok for others to do it now.
Oh no! Nothing like that!

It is buying the greener e-tec! No excuses like it is bigger and heavier than the old polluting 2-strokes! The not so green 4-strokes are also bigger and heavier than the old polluting 2-strokes.

Nuclear detonations? You think it is green to do those underground? Ha!

How about allowing 3rd world countries to chop down their forests which will allow them their industrial revolution and join the first world? Just because we used to do that, doesn't make it ok for them to do it now? So they must stay quiet and die poor as 3rd world for ever because we say so?

These are ideas that are at the source of many conflicts now and to come. Cruisers who spent some years in 3rd world countries start to understand the point of view of the peoples who live there, and how arrogant we seem when telling them not to chop up their forests after having chopped up ours to prosper. Or telling them not to develop nuclear technology while hovering a hand over a red flashing button and enjoying the A/C running off nuclear generated power.

So, for outboards in the 1st world, 4-strokes are okay but e-tec 2-strokes for those who prefer to be green. The rest of the world is using 2-stroke, which is better for the environment too until they become 1st world.

ciao!
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Old 19-01-2012, 15:36   #50
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

Ausaviator. Your merc 8hp is a tuned up 6. In exactly the same way as the tohatsu 9.8 is a tuned up 8. The difference is the Tohatsu does an extra 2hp for 1 less KG respectively. The 9.8 has different carbie, exhaust plate and head. Not 100% on this but the differences will be similar to the merc 6 vs 8. I dare say your 8hp would develop max power at higher revs that the 6 with a restricted intake system too.

Also the link you provided was to a Tohatsu 9.9. Its really a bit odd that they offer a 9.8 which is a tuned up 8, and a 9.9 which is a tuned down 15.....



As for the pollution caused by 2 stroke vs 4 in the application of a yacht tender (as opposed to say a passenger ferry). You have to be kidding me. The small amount of run hours will never make up for the extra emissions caused during manufacturing of the 4 stroke and recycling of sump oil. Especially if you spend the savings on something else like an extra solar panel or wind gen on your boat which means less or no diesel run time. $1000 will buy a cheap wind gen. That might just mean you don't need to run your diesel when staying over night.

Think of it that way. Money in itself can have an environmental impact. The more you spend on one environmentally green item, the less you have to spend on another. So you have to weigh up which item will make the most environmental difference when used as intended. Yacht tenders are not a big contribution here. A 2 stroke aux for a sailing boat probably would be.

The act of earning money (unless you live a 100% sustainable lifestyle and work in a pro environment job) will cause a massive amount of emissions. Just say you spent $1000 extra for a awesome new 4 stroke instead of a 2 stroke. $1000 a week is say an average wage. You try and work out how much pollution you caused by commuting to work plus all the pollution caused by your work activities. Will the 4 stroke motor make up for this on a yacht tender which gets used every 4th weekend for half a mile? If you were really worried about emissions you would buy the 2 stroke and spend the saved money on something that actually will get a lot of use, like getting a new catalytic converter for your old car, or paying extra on your electricity bill for green power (which is what I do).

Replacing a perfectly good 2 stroke tender motor is like selling your old car for a Toyota Prius. Its all about looking like you care rather than actually making a difference. Every time someone buys something NEW they are causing massive industrial waste.
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Old 19-01-2012, 15:41   #51
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Originally Posted by MarkSF

None at all, and my point is that is because they can't easily be made to meet modern emissions standards, while 4 strokes can so be made.

The claim was that 2 strokes are cleaner than 4 strokes, and have been unjustifiably banned. I said that this was rubbish.

Your argument is that the US should not have tighter emissions standards because the Turks and Caicos Islands don't have oil recycling. I'm not going to bother to say that it's rubbish too as I think it's obvious.
Ehrm.. 2-strokes not banned. E-tecs being sold as we post... Any engine meeting emission standards will be allowed on the US market.

Of course I agree that the US should not go back to the old polluting 2-strokes as long as they can afford the emission standards. I hope they can until they implement these standards in the upcoming 1st world nations so that total emissions output does not increase as much.

cheers,
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Old 19-01-2012, 15:54   #52
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

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And you doing that does not equal hundreds of thousands of people in the US. The fact that you don't have recycling, is not really relevant to buying an engine in California.
he wasn't asking about buying a two stroke engine in California. He asked about importing one from Australia.

The whole world knows California is not allowed to play with two stroke motors.
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Old 19-01-2012, 15:59   #53
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

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None at all, and my point is that is because they can't easily be made to meet modern emissions standards, while 4 strokes can so be made.

The claim was that 2 strokes are cleaner than 4 strokes, and have been unjustifiably banned. I said that this was rubbish.

Your argument is that the US should not have tighter emissions standards because the Turks and Caicos Islands don't have oil recycling. I'm not going to bother to say that it's rubbish too as I think it's obvious.
You are completely clueless about manufacturing costs. All of the light blue sheen that has your knickers in a twist is quickly eaten up when compared to the cost of manufacturing engines with as many more parts that four strokes have over two strokes.

And you continue to beat the same tired old drum despite posts on here showing you that two strokes are superior and cleaner than four strokes.

Do you even bother to read anything Al Gore doesn't personally approve?

Turks and Caicos, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Haiti, Guatemala, Trinidad, Mexico, and well over 100 other countries don't have oil recycling . You want me to list all of them for you? It will be a big post.
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Old 19-01-2012, 16:04   #54
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

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Ehrm.. 2-strokes not banned. E-tecs being sold as we post... Any engine meeting emission standards will be allowed on the US market.

cheers,
Nick.
That's what I just said.
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Old 19-01-2012, 16:11   #55
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That's what I just said.
No, that is what I just said your quote is in my previous post where you say 2-strokes are justifably banned and that it is rubbish etc.

ciao!
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Old 19-01-2012, 16:16   #56
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

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No, that is what I just said your quote is in my previous post where you say 2-strokes are justifably banned and that it is rubbish etc.

ciao!
Nick.
I did not say they have been justifiably banned. I said that they have not been unjustifiably banned.
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Old 19-01-2012, 16:21   #57
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

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Tohatsu made your Mercury engine. All small Nissans and Mercurys are made by Tohatsu.
True.... I did compare them though, they appear to be completely different, even though Wikipedia suggests that they are exactly the same but badged differently. The beefed up 8 being the same as the 6 is interesting in the Mercury, as the Tohatsu has a base 8, beefed up to a 9.9, so different units completely. The mention of the 9.8 being a tuned down 15 is also very interesting.


Quote:
Ausaviator. Your merc 8hp is a tuned up 6. In exactly the same way as the tohatsu 9.8 is a tuned up 8. The difference is the Tohatsu does an extra 2hp for 1 less KG respectively. The 9.8 has different carbie, exhaust plate and head. Not 100% on this but the differences will be similar to the merc 6 vs 8. I dare say your 8hp would develop max power at higher revs that the 6 with a restricted intake system too.

Also the link you provided was to a Tohatsu 9.9. Its really a bit odd that they offer a 9.8 which is a tuned up 8, and a 9.9 which is a tuned down 15.....
The 8hp Merc does the same RPM as the 6 so I'm not sure what their main differences are to get the extra HP, might be as you say, due to the exhaust etc. I guess you don't need a higher RPM to actually have more power.

I liked the build quality of the Merc versus the Tohatsu so I just went by that.

So you're saying the 9.8 is a tuned down 15 (same block) and only 1kg heaver for 2hp more? If that is the case it sounds like they are trying to wring a lot of horsepower out of a small engine block etc in the case of the 15 hp then. All very interesting.

I also looked at the Parsun.... and decided no way. I was happy with a Chinese rip-off inflatable for ~$500 but wouldn't do the same for the engine. Didn't want to be up a creek without a paddle literally!

I've also got an Evinrude E-Tec 90. Great machine, uses bugger-all oil and they are amazingly low in their emissions pumping out a lot less emissions when idling and trolling.
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Old 19-01-2012, 16:28   #58
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

Many engines are the same "bottom end" with a different head/top end bolted on, changing an 8 to a 9.9 or a 9.9 to a 15 is simply good eonomics. There are many tariffs, both internal and international, based on engine size, which is why you see lots of 9.9hp engines avoiding the 10hp tariff point.

Even the Atomic4 engine shares this legacy. Many of them were built with a throttle restrictor plate which cut the hp in half by restricting the air intake. Cut the hp in half, cut the tariff category. And if the end user happens to remove it...that's legal too.
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Old 19-01-2012, 16:40   #59
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

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Turks and Caicos, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Haiti, Guatemala, Trinidad, Mexico, and well over 100 other countries don't have oil recycling . You want me to list all of them for you? It will be a big post.
God I hate lowest common denominator thinking. WTF does any of that have to do with air quality in Los Angeles? Like it or not, there is a reason for emissions laws. And tilting against windmills didn't even work for Don Quixote so what's the point in mindlessly raging about something you cannot change?
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Old 19-01-2012, 17:14   #60
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Re: Can I Import a 2 Stroke Motor to CA from Australia ?

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True.... I did compare them though, they appear to be completely different, even though Wikipedia suggests that they are exactly the same but badged differently. The beefed up 8 being the same as the 6 is interesting in the Mercury, as the Tohatsu has a base 8, beefed up to a 9.9, so different units completely. The mention of the 9.8 being a tuned down 15 is also very interesting.




The 8hp Merc does the same RPM as the 6 so I'm not sure what their main differences are to get the extra HP, might be as you say, due to the exhaust etc. I guess you don't need a higher RPM to actually have more power.

I liked the build quality of the Merc versus the Tohatsu so I just went by that.

So you're saying the 9.8 is a tuned down 15 (same block) and only 1kg heaver for 2hp more? If that is the case it sounds like they are trying to wring a lot of horsepower out of a small engine block etc in the case of the 15 hp then. All very interesting.

I also looked at the Parsun.... and decided no way. I was happy with a Chinese rip-off inflatable for ~$500 but wouldn't do the same for the engine. Didn't want to be up a creek without a paddle literally!

I've also got an Evinrude E-Tec 90. Great machine, uses bugger-all oil and they are amazingly low in their emissions pumping out a lot less emissions when idling and trolling.
No you have it wrong. The Tohatsu 9.8 is a tuned up 8 and weighs the same as the Tohatsu 6 (tuned down 8) all 3 are based on the same motor and are all 26kg. The 9.9 is a tuned down 15 and weighs the same as the 15 as its the same motor. So I am sure the 9.9 would have more bottom end power and last longer than the 9.8 as it is based on a 15 rather than an 8. For a tender it would not make sense to get the heavier motor IMO.

As for the RPM of the 6-8 merc. It only lists max operating RPM which understandably is the same since the engine is the same. I can not find at what RPM the both deliver their max power. I think its totally irrelevant anyway.
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