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Old 28-04-2010, 19:58   #211
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@ lodesman. In this thread, I have several times mentioned that I have never encountered the USCG, but I have had boardings from representatives of other nations (like Greece and England), well inside their waters of course (!) that have been 100% polite and professional. I thus base my opinions on what others here have experienced, and what is generally reported from other seemingly reliable sources. My impression (maybe wrong) is that you want to make criticism of US laws and officials seem unreliable or unfair. Of course much of it actually is. But there can be no doubt that some of the USCG practices are worthy of attention. I think this forum contains enough knowledge to present opinions and solutions to this. And I think this thread has done so quite well. A topic like this cannot stay entirely off political items. How you can describe any of my postings as "inflammatory statements about the US government and its agencies", totally eludes me. I try to stay balanced, but will not avoid a logic conclusion just because it contains a negative observation about the US.

You're also ironic towards Hummingway and name his descriptions of known facts of recent history as "political rantings". I'm wondering if this may be my non English mother tongue kicking in. Maybe I don't understand the word "ranting"? I have the impression that the most ranting here is performed by you Lodesman...?
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Old 28-04-2010, 21:24   #212
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Just because the USCG does a really good job and behaves itself most of the time is no reason why people shouldn't complain about when they don't and the potential for abuse. I is complaining about problems that gets them fixed...that is the foundation of our govt.
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Old 28-04-2010, 21:54   #213
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Originally Posted by Stein View Post
In this thread, I have several times mentioned that I have never encountered the USCG, but I have had boardings from representatives of other nations (like Greece and England), well inside their waters of course (!) that have been 100% polite and professional. I thus base my opinions on what others here have experienced, and what is generally reported from other seemingly reliable sources.
There are only a few posts about first-hand interaction with the USCG, most of which are positive. There was afaik only one that described an illegal boarding, but that poster did not provide any details or respond to requests for those details.

Quote:
How you can describe any of my postings as "inflammatory statements about the US government and its agencies", totally eludes me. I try to stay balanced, but will not avoid a logic conclusion just because it contains a negative observation about the US.
You likened the US gov't to Nazis and the KKK - and your "logical conclusions" seem to be based on hearsay, ignoring the many positive comments.

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You're also ironic towards Hummingway and name his descriptions of known facts of recent history as "political rantings".
There's a difference between "known facts" and unsubstantiated allegations. I don't know what, if anything has been determined in the UK, but in Canada the investigation is ongoing - with no determination of the facts at this time.

If trying to correct misinformation and quell anti-american bigotry is ranting, then I am guilty, but make no apologies. If someone was making disparaging remarks about Norway, I would speak out against that too.
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Old 28-04-2010, 22:57   #214
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Lodesman;443852]There's a difference between "known facts" and unsubstantiated allegations. I don't know what, if anything has been determined in the UK, but in Canada the investigation is ongoing - with no determination of the facts at this time.
There is a perspective that would say the allegations are unsubstantiated. There is another that would suggest the deliberate attempt to impede the process of uncovering the truth is substantiation. Proof in a court of law? No, but evidence that some people in the military and gov't are pretty sure things won't go well if the truth comes out. I think at this point what isn't substantiated is the question "how bad was it?"


Officials to testify over report delays
Investigate new Afghan detainee charges - The Globe and Mail
Ottawa accused of withholding military letters on detainees - The Globe and Mail


And in England it looks more clear cut except they seem to claim we knew about torture but didn't know they would torture our guys (my reading):
Afghan spy chief: 'I told MI5 that prisoners were being tortured' | World news | The Observer
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Old 29-04-2010, 04:21   #215
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I think we should not spend much time discussing who said what, but rather keep discussing the issues related to this thread, so I'll leave it to the more interested to investigate for themselves by reading the earlier postings.

I should though, clarify one point: Lodesman, you say: "You likened the US gov't to Nazis and the KKK." This is just what I try to avoid. I try to keep my opinions related to specific actions or attitudes, not a whole country, government, or so in general. What I have said is that certain practices and attitudes of the US officials remind of "institutions one would not like to be compared with...." I have also said that certain developments indicate that there is a drift in the US system towards the more authoritative (and could add this time, if we were discussing a personality, one might say the change contains some psychopathic elements), which of course also would compare with not so nice entities. Trying to clarify and influence such changes seems like an intent this thread could realistically target.

On a more general note, (the rest of this posting is another departure from the thread topic) I have the impression that in big nations, not only the US, more than in small ones like Norway, many seem more "sore" on the national pride stuff. If I were to burn or intentionally soil an American flag, (which I of course have no intent of ever doing) that would be highly dangerous in the US. It would most likely be seen as a personal attack on any citizen and probably I'd rapidly become target of rage and violence.

In Norway, that's totally different. Of course some may react the same way, but the definitely normal reaction would be a slight curiosity of why I was destroying my flag which seemed to be quite usable still. Most would think I must be some nut case or fanatic. One could compare this to the christian practice when the priest says something about "This is the flesh of Jesus and this is the blood of Jesus." (Don't remember the exact wording.) One is expected to feel that this is actually true. It seems like people in big nations are more prone to follow this kind of thought, if transponded into the national feeling context, and live into it, while in smaller nations, like Norway, we are more relaxed on this and quite aware that we're served dry biscuits and sour wine, and that the flag is actually a piece of cloth. Any owner of that cloth may dispose of it any way he pleases.

What is the better attitude, I cannot say. Both have pros and cons, but at least the latter is easier to deal with. I'm definitely proud of Norway and being Norwegian, but have no problem noticing that there are plenty of reason for criticism, and will not at all feel offended if such points are made by foreigners (unless they are Swedes :-). But if I think they are not correct, I'll probably discuss the content of the criticism. Pride is a very nice thing, but may also become too influential.
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Old 29-04-2010, 04:39   #216
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Well, folks, that about does it, I think. After 15 pages, this topic has been pretty much beat to death. So much so that it would be difficult to impossible for a new reader to even figure out what the original question was, based on most of the more recent posts.

I'm sure 99.9% of members who take a peek at this thread will breathe a collective sigh of relief when they read...

Thread Closed!
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