Can I Be Stopped in International Waters ?

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Resigned weary boredom is my usual manner when crossing borders.

Having plenty of dirty laundery available for inspection does no harm either

After spending two weeks sailing up in BC in October my boat looked like it had been through a spin dry...boarding party restricted their searches to the easiest to get to/most obvious places (I swear each member of the boarding party searched the same places two times)

[Stein]

I have no knowledge about applicable US law on this topic, but it seems like parts of the US system might be inspired by institutions one would not like to be associated with, like some German WW2 institutions. (The name Homeland Security sounds like some KKKlan thing, deservedly or not. I don't know). Other things seem much worse. I won't elaborate on this as I'm far from well informed, but either way, the ghosts behind these ugly entities are obviously not developing the US most people want. And it seems as it's easier to deploy the bully systems slightly out of sight, at sea.

It's possible to look at parts of the original discussion in this thread (may I be boarded off shore) logically and hope that the laws adhere to logic somewhat, and that justice is a bit related to what seems just and fair. I know that's a far cry for laws and justice in general, anywhere in the world, but for the mental/moral exercise:

As mentioned previously, the Skipper is the undisputed boss on any vessel. Especially so when at sea. There is only three ways to oppose this unlimited authority: Mutiny, Piracy or Emergency Intervention. The latter always starts out as Mutiny or Piracy, differing only by where the culprit originates, but may in rare cases be justified due to some serious imminent threat pre detected beyond serious doubt, and thus be renamed: Emergency Intervention. Either way, a court treatment can logically never be omitted as severe crimes (or insanity) must be present somewhere.

Thus, Coast Guards etc who want to inspect a vessel at sea, must first be allowed boarding by the Captain, and accept that they are entirely under his command while aboard. If not granted permission, they must find reason for Emergency Intervention. Some Captains do deny their boarding, and the reason for inspection is reportedly non existent in most cases, even after having inspected all. It seems as the Coast Guard have been (unwillingly I assume) appointed Pirates by a corrupt system which is empowered to avoid persecution for their own criminal acts.

Similar intrusions in someones house are not possible, even though house owners have no Captains authority. If I'm right, even if crimes are detected upon inspection in someones home, it will be denied in court if the inspection was not legally executed. Why are there wild west rules when we get off the dry stuff? Maybe there should be a mandatory court treatment for all such occasions? That should shed some light in the right murky offices.

Some sort of conclusion is fitting again: All the above is no more than thoughts. Reality is what we live in. Thoughts shape the future world, at best, and can be good tools for acting meaningfully. Connecting this post and my previous one isn't too hard. Above I criticize a system. When we are boarded we do not relate to a system. We relate to the actual people present. Personality, their and yours, is always far more influential on how the situation develops than "systems" either represents. Especially so if you set the scene for it. Social skills. As you are actually the Captain, and in command of all present, behave that way (without commanding!). If you crawl scared into a corner or yell at them, what's the effect? No good! If you try to be their pal, it's not bad, but you both know it's fake, and that doesn't win you respect. Think Santa Claus. He's got the ultimate authority, but only based on kindness and certainty that all is good. Mutual respect and unlimited generosity (I'm not thinking about gifts) towards anyone, child or adult. It gives no alternative but acting suitably. Only sick persons opposes it. If you can be a Captain radiating that welcoming friendly fatherly authority, any boarding will be just a nice curiosity visit.

But don't overdo it. If you actually wear the big white Santa beard and red clothing, it might be seen as rather alarming, one way or another.

[svtadpole]

Here's my humble opinion ...

Firstly, those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear ...

Secondly, when planning & making passages it is wise to keep the authorities informed & onside (you never know when you might need them) ...

[Stein]

@svtadpole. Of course you are right. And keeping the officials informed is often an easy way of avoiding undue curiosity. But this discussion I believe is somewhat beyond the fear of being "caught" at anything. My consern isn't being the subject of unreasonable punishment and such, although that's also a possible problem with the "guilty until proven innocent" attitude that may be seen as the core of the more aggressive boarding practices.

I think what most of us risk is just being intimidated, feeling intruded upon or exposed to people we do not like. Discomfort, not "suffering". Why still the strong feelings about this topic? I think it's because our fundamental feeling of right and wrong is contested. And also that it's a situation that is not only the start, but far into a negative change of society. Even though the consequenses are small, tolerance for wrong things is not good. Even the worst regimes imaginable started out as small things with non important consequences. The argument "nothing to hide - nothing to fear" was also frequently used by both Hitler and Stalin.

As mentioned, McCarthyism isn't all that far back in the US, and the Monica Lewinsky affair proves mad people still are in positions. (Bill isn't among the ones I think of.) And by all means: The US isn't the only country deserving this scrutiny and criticism. Now it's just because we're yachties, many here are sailing waters where USCG operate, and they seem to be the worst at acting like selfrighteous pirates. The Somali pirates of course present a totally different degree of drama, but they're not hired by you. The USCG is! Few people like to pay others to harass them, even if its harmless. Especially when knowing it's a stupid and counterproductive way to achieve the right goals...

[Stein]

I just have to mention a classic book that is a fabulous description of why this topic is important: George Orwells "1984". (Written 1948). And yes, the argument "nothing to hide - nothing to fear" is an important theory of that overly controlled society. "Big brother sees you".

And one of my favourite older movies: "Brazil" (not at all related to the country) by ex "Monthy Python" Terry Gilliam, with in a small role, the fabulous plumber played by Robert De Niro. This film has some marvellous (but very black) humour, but is mostly something totally different, explaining well into paranoia why too much control is too much. The weirdest sci-fi film, made in the early eighties but not looking it. Way older, or way newer. Who knows....

Well I'll shut up for now. I admit I'm a nerd on whatever topic I touch. But hopefully somewhat entertaining. The perfect toast master. But I suck at dancing. No reason for it. Just have denied doing it. I'll have to fix that. Yep. Raving mad is what I really am. :-D

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by svtadpole

Here's my humble opinion ...

Firstly, those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear ...

That's all very well for you - but for others...............

Secondly, when planning & making passages it is wise to keep the authorities informed & onside (you never know when you might need them) ...

That's 1 step from asking permission. God forbid that ever becomes neccessary in this little part of the world

IME the less the Govt knows the less they need to worry their pretty little heads about - a sense of humour does not always translate well

[canuck dennis]

Download " UNCLOS" tells you all about boardings etc in various states etc, is the International agreement signed on to by most developed Countries.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Stein

I have no knowledge about applicable US law on this topic, but it seems like parts of the US system might be inspired by institutions one would not like to be associated with, like some German WW2 institutions. (The name Homeland Security sounds like some KKKlan thing, deservedly or not. I don't know). Other things seem much worse. I won't elaborate on this as I'm far from well informed, but either way, the ghosts behind these ugly entities are obviously not developing the US most people want. And it seems as it's easier to deploy the bully systems slightly out of sight, at sea.

"Homeland" sounds very similar to "Motherland" (Soviet Russia) and "Fatherland" (Nazi Germany) so close I occasionally slip up and call it "Fatherland Security" actually the only thing keeping me from having a coffee cup made that says "Motherland/Fatherland/Homeland" is the fear i might get put on a subversive list

[IdoraKeeper]

2. Keep your teenage daughters below decks and well dressed at all times. No swimsuits while the USCG are out. And no sly wink and side looks at them either.

I sailed my old 26 footer close aboard one of our Tridents which was on some kind of VIP day cruise. She was lying on the surface with all of her stantions in place and forward hatch open. Quite a crowd on deck. My wife came up from below with a couple of beers. The sub sounded her air horn, got underway and drifted along behind us for several hundred yards as we headed into Port Ludlow. All the guys on the Sail were waving and hollering. My wife thought they wanted beer-- I'm not so sure.

Todd

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by svtadpole

Here's my humble opinion ...

Firstly, those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear ...

Secondly, when planning & making passages it is wise to keep the authorities informed & onside (you never know when you might need them) ...

So if you and your wife are having intimate moments in your bedroom, and a cop walks in and sits down to watch, you have nothing to hide, so why would you object? Would you say nothing, just in case you may need them someday? Where do you draw the line between privacy ,and open for any cop to watch, as , having nothing to hide, you have no right to object?
We'll call them "When" we need them , and thank them for minding their own business when we don't .
Great posts guys. It's reassuring to know cruisers are so willing and determined to defend their freedoms, and not accept feeble excuses for the undermining of their freedoms and right to privacy.
When you see big brother coming, may be a good time to do a bit of painting.
A friend in South Africa had just painted his floor, when they brought their drug sniffing dog aboard. After shitting on the officer packing the dog aboard ,the dog curled up and went to sleep on the wet paint.
Cops hate getting wet paint on their costumes.
Not much chance of encountering the Canadian Coast Guard outside Canadian waters, and they don't do law enforcement anyway. Only one country does that to their own people, and others, in international waters.

[Brent Swain]

Don't expect any county with a reputation for ignoring international law , except when it is applied to others and not themselves, to give a rat's ass what the law is.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Don't expect any county with a reputation for ignoring international law , except when it is applied to others and not themselves, to give a rat's ass what the law is.

- - What the "Law is" is highly variable with each country worldwide. The laws authorizing stopping and boarding vessels at sea for the USA goes back to 1776 and also the Civil War era to thwart "enemy" shipping. These "laws" are still "on the books." Add in recent drugs and terrorist laws and there are abundant "Laws" authorizing the USCG and US Navy to stop and board any vessel anywhere. So don't get hung up on "Laws" and instead be savvy about how you approach and deal with boardings when they happen. Depending upon your individual "karma" you may never be stopped and boarded (actual odds are quite low) or you may have enough boardings to start to get to know the "troops" by their first names.

[Stein]

@osirissail. I think I disagree with the first half of your post, and agree with the second half:

Within the US territorial zone, 3, 7 or12 nautical miles (various types of jurisdiction) off shore, most US laws are valid, and US officials have the powers given by those laws, but to a slight degrees restricted by international maritime laws about commanding a ship related to safety. Outside the territorial zone is the economical zone, reaching 200 nautical miles offshore, or to the border of a neighboring state. In this zone, the US have full control over business activities like fisheries, oil, etc, but nothing else. Still it's understandable that in this area some more curiosity will exist, if there is reason for it. Outside 200 nautical miles, any "laws" autorizing US officials to perform any sort of authority function are 100% worthless. The Norwegian government could authorise the Norwegian Coast Guard to board US vessels in the middle of the Pacific, or even worse, authorise Norwegian cops to arrest and question people in New York. But how valid would those authorisations be? Rather laughable I'd say. Totally useless.

Reportedly, various US entities do stuff they are beyond any discussion not entitled to. On the other hand, there is no real system to forbid them doing it either. Sivilised nations are expected to behave sivilised, and their representetives are expected to behave in a way that represents their nations attitudes.... So we're left with two options:
1. Try to speak up and change wrong practices slowly into something better. This forum is some. Small things done by a lot of people make a difference.
2. Behave in ways that will minimize disadvantages of boardings. Either by staying out of waters patrolled by US officials, or being prepared wisely for boardings. Of course having and doing nothing illegal, and cooperating with the officials in a way that makes the ordeal as nice as possible. I'd use the strategies discussed in previous posts. Mutual respect, well deserved or not, are key words for me.

[Passage50]

Dont argue with Guys whom have Machine Guns.

[osirissail]

I think you need to get back to what a "law" is - (as Pres Clinton would say). In "international law" definition it is all about how various nations treat each other and deal with each other. The definition of International waters is about areas of the oceans where no government has jurisdiction - in other words there are no "cops" out there as there is no "government of the oceans." What we do have are "conventions" and "principles" of operation on the "high seas."
- - In the earlier frontier (wild west) of the North American land area - there was no "government" therefore "no laws." Civil and uncivil behavior was accomplished by the size and speed of your weapons. Same with "International Waters" the folks with the biggest guns can do what they want and justify it by numerous "national security" laws and policies, rightly or wrongly.
- - So after 195 posts the original OP's question has the answer - YES. And there is nothing you can do about it unless you can "outgun" them. There is nobody to stop them beyond public opinion and bad P.R. - which can be very effective and can be a very expensive way to assert your position.
- - Basically put, nobody owns "international waters" ergo, there are no "laws" as there are no "cops" out there. What there is - are national laws that give jurisdiction over your boat and you to your "home country" as to your conduct while in "International waters." That is how the U.K. is going after that "missing school sailboat" in the South Pacific off the west coast of South America. It is a U.K. flagged vessel and supposedly operating contrary to U.K law. You will notice many USCG "stops" of non-USA boats is usually preceded by a radio communication asking if any USA citizens are on board. If the answer is "yes" then they have their "hook" to board and inspect. If there isn't any nationals on board then they use the "national security - drug enforcement - terrorism" hook to facilitate boarding if they want to.